Friday, January 21, 2011

Some NDP & BC Liberal politicos agree - BC should get rid of recall - it's not fair to Ida Chong. Unbelievable!

Stew Murray and Merv Evans staff the Fight HST petition table outside Nanaimo General Regional Hospital on May 15
Recall and citizen initiatives hold MLAs accountable, and that's sorely needed

Bill Tieleman's 24 hours/The Tyee

Tuesday January 18, 2011

By Bill Tieleman


"As citizens of this democracy, you are the rulers and the ruled, the law-givers and the law-abiding, the beginning and the end."

- Adlai Stevenson, U.S. politician,1900-1965

Prominent British Columbia politicians of all persuasions really don't trust you, the voter.

It doesn't matter if they hold a BC Liberal or BC New Democrat membership card or were premier or cabinet ministers -- your democratic rights are a threat to their privileged existence.

That's the blunt lesson to be learned from the comments last week of a former B.C. premier, an ex-attorney general, a former finance minister and a former member of parliament and provincial cabinet minister, as well as current ministers.

What's got them absolutely steaming mad? Recall and citizens' initiatives.

Why? Because it takes a small measure of power away from politicians and puts it in the hands of voters.

How undemocratic, they shout!

And they want a future government to eliminate both recall and citizens initiatives, so campaigns like that against Premier Gordon Campbell's Harmonized Sales Tax or any other issue can never happen again.

Sound crazy? Insulting? Offensive?

You bet it is.

But both former NDP premier Dan Miller and former Social Credit attorney general Brian Smith said so loudly last week, in language that's shocking.

You decide. Here's what Smith said about the recall campaign against BC Liberal cabinet minister Ida Chong over the HST.

"What could be a more inappropriate, in fact disgustingly inappropriate moment than to have a bunch of people in yellow jackets ringing doorbells to get rid of MLAS?" Smith told CKNW radio host Mike Smyth last Monday.

"Recall is not to be used at whim to target innocent MLAs. And the fact that they're using it, I hope there will be some changes to that recall legislation so this can never happen again," Smith blustered. "You can't have MLAs being recalled willy-nilly because people are mad at the government. The system is not going to work."

Exactly -- the system where voters elect a government that misleads them and then ignores their concerns and objections for four years can't work -- when citizens can propose their own legislation and recall MLAs who don't listen.

Political 'violation'?

Smith wasn't finished pontificating either.

"It [recall] was not brought in to try and target MLAs who might have slim majorities and might be vulnerable because they happen to be part of a party whose policies the recallers don't like," Smith said.

"MLAs were elected for the term of the legislature. That's four years -- they sign off. Ida can't go back to accounting for four years. Mr. McRae, who's the next recall target in Comox, he can't go back to teaching, he's signed off on a leave of absence."

"And now the rules are being changed by these people who don't like one particular policy so they're going to throw them out for one policy. That's not what recall was for."

"The other reason I think in this case that recall is not legitimate is that the tax reform people have already achieved what they said they wanted to do at the beginning. That is they want to get rid of the HST."

"And they have got a referendum which the retiring premier even changed the rules to make it easier for them to win the referendum when it just requires a simple majority who show up and vote instead of those on the voters list. So they've done that," Smith said.


Wow, how generous of those MLAs to give up their professions for us peasants and of Campbell to actually respond to voter concerns!

Host Mike Smyth challenged the former attorney general on a lot of that, noting that there are absolutely no rules that say what recall can or cannot be used for.

"Listen, you can legally do it -- of course you can. But if you look at all the debates and discussion of recall when it was introduced, it was introduced to get rid of bad apples," Brian Smith replied.

"This is a political violation of the raison d'etre behind recall," he said.

Smith is dead wrong. As noted here previously, the only legislative requirement for recall is a 200-word statement giving the proponent's reasons for wanting to remove the MLA. No reasons are inadmissible.

Miller: 'bad policy'

But Smith is hardly alone in being mistaken.

Former premier Miller called in on the open line to back up Smith -- his political adversary in the past.

"I agree 100 per cent with Brian Smith," Miller fumed. "Let's trace this back. Why did recall come about anyways? It's because the Socreds were desperate in the dying days 1991... and the NDP not wanting to be offside or potentially lose some votes, agreed with it.

"It came about as an act of desperation by a losing government and it's bad policy and quite frankly it ought to be revoked."

"But to try and remove an MLA on a matter of policy it seems to me is fundamentally wrong."

Miller didn't stop at opposing recall either -- he went on to criticize the successful Fight HST citizens initiative petition I helped organize with former Social Credit premier Bill Vander Zalm and former Unity Party leader Chris Delaney.

"And quite frankly I'm offended by the triumvirate who are self-appointed, meaning Vander Zalm, Delaney and Bill Tieleman, who seem to think they speak for ordinary British Columbians -- they don't at all," Miller said.

Let's be clear -- 705,643 individual British Columbians signed the citizens initiative petition, and Elections BC verified that 557,383 signatures -- more than 10 per cent of voters in every one of B.C.'s 85 ridings -- were valid, making it the first successful initiative.


The entire campaign was run by volunteers -- no paid staff, shoestring budget, just ordinary citizens contributing their personal time and energy -- that's why it worked. And poll after poll showed overwhelming opposition to the HST.

Vander Zalm, Delaney and I were honoured to lead that campaign, but I think Miller is offended not by us but by the audacity of ordinary voters to presume to tell politicians they did the wrong thing, in a way that couldn't be ignored.

Killing the HST dead

The HST cost Campbell his job -- and may cost his party the next election if they don't scrap it.

The recall against Chong -- a future effort against Comox, B.C. Liberal MLA Don McRae -- is the second part of campaign to kill the HST by putting pressure on the government.

It is entirely legal and proper according to legislation that Dan Miller even voted for. In those ridings voters will democratically decide whether or not recalling government MLAs over the HST is needed or supported.


But Miller and Smith are outraged by the mere thought of recall being used to influence government policy, as are former NDP cabinet ministers Paul Ramsey and Ian Waddell.

"Instead of electing dedicated professionals, in the case of Ida and the guy in Comox, you're going to elect people of a different kind, people who are opportunists and so on, you are not going to get the same commitment or the same calibre of commitment," Smith said. "I mean, this is not a good system."


Heaven forbid that voters might end up with "opportunists" as MLAs! What would happen to our government without high calibre members like Chong?

Smith continued his rant: "We're a parliamentary democracy. We are not a plebiscitary democracy."

Oh, I see. Politicians who are better than voters, smarter than voters and more committed than voters will decide major questions for us -- including to impose the HST, a $2 billion a year tax shift so consumers pay instead of big business.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Smith should understand that people of every political persuasion -- BC Liberal, Green, New Democrat, BC Conservative, Refederation, BC First -- and those who have none -- all signed the citizens initiative petition to eliminate the HST.

British Columbians voted in favour of the initiative and recall legislation in a referendum concurrent with the 1991 provincial election.

And last year voters showed that when provoked they will use that legislation appropriately as they see fit.
Waddell: 'We have elections'

The same day on CKNW, Waddell, a former NDP provincial tourism minister and federal MP, told host Bill Good his views on recall.

"I'm speaking personally, I don't like it," said Waddell. "It came from I think originally, brought in by the NDP I believe, very hypocritically -- I think we were hypocrites in a way because it was the flavour of the day."


"Preston Manning had talked about it, the Reform Party, it comes from the Americans, from California. It's not in the British parliamentary tradition."


"We brought it in with a very, very high level, hoping that, well we sort of did it but they won't do it. I think it should be restricted to very serious, like fraud, criminal acts of an MLA," Waddell said.

And Waddell opposes the recall campaign against Chong.
"I was in the House with Ida Chong. I don't agree with her policies but she's perfectly a good MLA, doing her job. So why are we recalling her? We have elections, that's what we have," Waddell said.

That would be the election where the BC Liberal Party told both the restaurant association and the new home developers association that they were not planning to bring in an HST -- in response to direct questions. Then they did it after the election.

Privileged opponents

Ex-NDP finance minister Paul Ramsey has extra reasons to be agitated about recall. He was the target of a bitter recall campaign in his Prince George riding in 1998 that failed.

And despite political party differences he opposes the Chong recall.

"Frankly, I think she [Chong] is doing the right thing -- this isn't about the HST -- it's about government policy," Ramsey told CBC Radio's On The Island show Dec. 8, referring to Chong's anti-recall campaign approach.

Smith, Miller, Ramsey, Waddell and Chong are all totally entitled to their views against recall and the citizens initiative process.

But remember -- they are all members or former members of the same club -- Members of the Legislative Assembly of B.C. -- and it's a privileged group.

MLAs are paid extremely well -- because they voted themselves a big raise to about $100,000 a year -- more than double the wages of ordinary British Columbians.

And they get expenses too -- like the nearly $6,000 in meals Chong charged last year despite living minutes from the legislature.

They also receive handsome pensions most British Columbians don't get, courtesy of taxpayers. Many MLAs voted to retroactively restore their pensions at full value after the Glen Clark NDP government eliminated them in favour of a more modest annual RRSP contribution -- partly because of pressure from BC Liberal leader Gordon Campbell.

And cabinet ministers, committee chairs and other legislature officers in both parties also recently got additional salaries for doing their jobs.


So when ordinary voters come along questioning their entitlements to not only generous pay, pensions and benefits but also their ability to keep them despite angering the public -- watch out!


Those politicians who fight all day in the legislature close ranks quickly to oppose any threat to their privileged existence.


Recalls 'most effective': Ramsey

Let me be clear. I opposed restoring pensions and giving MLAs and cabinet ministers big pay increases. But I do support MLAs having a fair salary and some form of retirement benefits.

Just not a gold-plated plan that few citizens could possibly obtain in their own jobs.


And how dare any current or former MLAs attempt to get rid of citizens initiatives or recall!

The legislation is already seriously flawed to the point of making it nearly impossible to succeed.

That's why MLAs who don't fear their voters should do what Premier Gordon Campbell promised to do -- and broke his pledge -- make both initiatives and recall more workable and fair.

But don't count on it. Empowered voters are way too threatening to all politicians.
Perhaps it was Paul Ramsey who best made the case in favour of recall, despite his personal opposition.

Ramsey wrote in 2003: "There's much to be said against the current recall campaigns in British Columbia. They clearly abuse the intent of the recall legislation. They create bitter divisions in communities. They distract M.L.A.'s and ministers from their real duties of office.

"But the campaigns have proven to be more effective at getting the government's attention than other forms of political protest," he continued. "One thing is clear: the recall campaigns have forced the government to pay far more attention to the local effects of provincial policies.

"Recall petitioners may not gather enough signatures to throw MLAs out of office, but they will affect government policy," he concluded.


Exactly right. And that's the point.

Tell your MLA, tell any candidate for MLA, tell any leadership candidate from the BC Liberals or NDP or BC Conservatives that you will fight all the way against any effort to take citizens initiatives or recall legislation away from voters.

Don't let politicians take away your power.


.

30 comments:

Anonymous said...

We have quit the NDP because of people like Waddell and Miller.
Yes Chong had to go not only for her support of the HST,but her support for the sale of BC rail,fish farms, destroying BC rivers,selling out BC Hydro,pipelines to fill freighters with oil for China,etc, The list is endless. We don't need people of her ilk in government. The Liberals are the most corrupt government BC has ever had and she is part of it. How sleazy do politicians have to get before Waddell and Miller feel its time to look into it It's no wonder the NDP is in trouble with people like this around. I wonder why Waddell and Miller would support the Liberals.

Anonymous said...

Bill, I wrote this and three newspapers actually printed it. I was stunned at the responces. I even had long distant calls telling me I was right on. Anyhow, here it is.
Recall and Initiative Act
The people of British Columbia have something no other Province has. We are being watched, coast to coast by the people of the rest of Canada. If we make this Recall, Referendum work
They will surly demand they are allowed to do the same. It will change the history of Canada. The politicians will know that they can and will be held accountable from now on.
But people it is up to us now! Will we stay complacent and leave our dictator governments in place to sell or give away our country? How many more hospitals and schools will we allow them to close? One hundred and seventy four schools so far.
Or will we step up to the plate, leave the TV set and get out, sign the recalls? If we do not show them now, we must expect (mark my words) that our BC Hydro within 2 to 5 years will no longer be ours! It will be gone under USA ownership as is our BC rail, BC Gas, our rivers and The Canadian National Railway to name but a few. What Tommy Douglas fought and won for us will be gone also, our Heath Care will be privatized! I plead, on my knees to the people of BC. Get out, recall, recall, recall.
If we don’t do it this time we will only have ourselves to blame and never have this chance again. They will know that they have total control and can carry on doing what so ever they wish.
Wayne Russell
The Vagabond Writer

Slyoplfart said...

Bill: I wrote this and three newspapers actually printed it. I was surprised at the replys, even some long distant calls saying I was right on. Anyhow here it is.
Recall and Initiative Act
The people of British Columbia have something no other Province has. We are being watched, coast to coast by the people of the rest of Canada. If we make this Recall, Referendum work
They will surly demand they are allowed to do the same. It will change the history of Canada. The politicians will know that they can and will be held accountable from now on.
But people it is up to us now! Will we stay complacent and leave our dictator governments in place to sell or give away our country? How many more hospitals and schools will we allow them to close? One hundred and seventy four schools so far.
Or will we step up to the plate, leave the TV set and get out, sign the recalls? If we do not show them now, we must expect (mark my words) that our BC Hydro within 2 to 5 years will no longer be ours! It will be gone under USA ownership as is our BC rail, BC Gas, our rivers and The Canadian National Railway to name but a few. What Tommy Douglas fought and won for us will be gone also, our Heath Care will be privatized! I plead, on my knees to the people of BC. Get out, recall, recall, recall.
If we don’t do it this time we will only have ourselves to blame and never have this chance again. They will know that they have total control and can carry on doing what so ever they wish.
Wayne Russell
The Vagabond Writer

DPL said...

The people work to get elected and then a number of them coast till the next election. If they are in certain ridings, they know they are there long enough to collect a very high wage, and if they manage to hold on,a pension that is obscene. They of course join ranks and vote the pay increases and the pension. Nobody else I can think of get to do that. So yes recall has their collective shirts in a knot especially if their performance is less than stellar.

Alan said...

Thanks for the article. Now we need to get everyone to understand the issues and vote!

It makes me sick that so many NDPers can side with the so-called Liberals (i.e., Socreds/neo-cons and fascists) of BC.

Les Zsoldos said...

Brian Smith is an arrogant, self-centred individual who doesn't like Bill Vander Zalm. It's no secret that he did nothing to prevent the demise of the Socreds. Ida Chong must go because she has put her interests ahead of those of British Columbians. She was a robot of the Campbell government. All she cares about is keeping her job. Even if she survives the recall effort, she's finished in the next election.

Gary E said...

I started to notice very early on (during the initiative campaign) that NO politicians were in favor of recall.
And it wasn't hard to figure out that the recall system if successful, would jeopardize their jobs. Most of them still do not understand that we the people are their bosses. Not special interest groups.

Anonymous said...

Of course politicians will fight the HST and Recall. They are used to being, able to thieve our province and people at will. Campbell gave himself a $60,000 wage hike. His henchmen 29% hike. He thieved our BCR and sold it. He promised he wouldn't, as an election lie. He thieved and sold our rivers. Campbell is a corrupt s.o.b, that thieved, this province blind. Ida Chong, should be kicked right out of our province, for ripping off the citizens, $6.000 for her fine dining. Campbell and Hansen's election lie, the HST wasn't on their radar. Hansen finally admitted, the HST papers were sitting on his desk, before the election. Politicians feel they have the right to, lie, deceive and cheat to win, and cheat the people. BC is rotten to the core with corruption. BC is the most corrupt province in Canada. Campbell is the worst, corrupt premier, in Canadian history.

BC is at the bottom of the pile of all the other provinces, because of the HST. BC had the highest number of job losses in Dec, because of the HST. Jan, there will be 15000 more jobs lost, because of the HST. BC citizens, spend millions shopping in the U.S.A, because of the HST. People living near the Alberta border shop there, because of the HST. Any idiot can see the HST is destroying our province. Our BC HST, doesn't even stay in our province, it goes to another snake in the grass, Campbell's good buddy Harper. That's the last, we have seen of our stolen HST dollars.

The HST was designed for big business, and big business only. Big business is paying Campbell very well, to keep the HST. They are all lined up at the trough, squealing their loudest, because, they are bottomless pits of greed.

Campbell and Hansen lied and said, the people will save a lot of money, by the HST. Strangely, everyone's cost of living went sky high. The BC citizens knew, the HST would kill this province, and it did. BC is dead last, in the country. The HST was FORCED on the people. How democratic. How stupid.

Anonymous said...

What wasn't fair is, The HST was crammed down our throats. Campbell refused to allow proper debate in the Legislature. Obviously the HST is damaging this province and the citizens. Can these people, Waddell and Miller not see that? BC has done the worst, of all the Canadian provinces. That gormless, brainless, idiot of a Campbell, steals our rivers and sells them to his buddies. Our hydro is going up to 55%, more cost for the people. Campbell's scam of the sea to sky highway means we, the tax payers, are stuck paying for the wealthy to have a good road to the ski hill, for TWENTY-FIVE YEARS. Thousands of us will never use that highway. Put a dammed toll on it. Anyone who can afford to ski there, can certainly pay a toll. But this is what Campbell does, he rips off the less fortunate people, and gives the wealthy all the breaks. There was no intention, on Campbell's part, to make the HST a gain for the people. The HST was for the benefit of large corporations, who don't bank their money in BC, their money isn't even kept in Canada. Why else would these huge company's bribe Campbell, to fight to keep the HST? Isn't it good enough, they get huge tax reductions. They are given billions of our tax dollars. I watched a motion passed by the entire Federal House, to do just that. Do they really have to squeal for the HST as well? They, Campbell and the BC Liberals, are the only ones, who will lie, play dirty tactics against the people, to keep it. Not that the BC people, will not remember Harper's part in the HST. We will, come next Federal Election time. Are Campbell and the BC Liberals ashamed of themselves, for their destruction of our province? Not on your Nelly. We have to gag our way through, the BC Liberals time in office. There will be very little left in this province, that won't be thieved and sold. And, to hell with Ida Chong, how disgraceful, to chomp her way through $6.000, of the tax payers money.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe my eyes. Not fair to Ida Chong? How unfair of her, for spending, $6.000 of the tax payer dollars for her dining. That's more than thousands of people have to spend, to feed their entire family on. How on earth, are we gong to bear, two more years, of the BC Liberals and their lies, deceit, thefts and underhanded tactics? BC is terminally ill now, because of, Campbell and the BC Liberals. It seems, BC is forever going to be governed by criminals.

Doris Foster said...

Electoral Reform for British Columbia

I would like to propose that we not just wait until we are offered a referendum on the HST, taking out MLAs by recalls. We need to act before that and change the system itself. Whichever individual or party is in “power” ~ it's not us. We need to have a more flexible and inclusive system for electing and holding representatives accountable.

Elected representatives will never really feel that they are accountable to us, unless we can change our votes whenever we want to. That one simple difference would change what we have now ~ electing representatives of political parties to “manage” us through their leader's potentially dictatorial decisions, based on a one-sided vision of BC instead of our own multi-faceted visions ~ to give us attentive, working representatives who are focused on us as if their jobs really depended upon it.

Instead of electing politicians who hire professionals to market their parties' brands to us, we need to find good listeners who can combine the knowledge, ideas, skills, and aspirations of the wide range of creative individuals in their communities by helping citizens find collaborative solutions that work for them and their families in their daily lives. Everyone needs to be able to live in a manner they can accept and are willing to work cooperatively in their community to maintain.

Do you want remain subservient to a dysfunctional system and the powerful corporate, political, and criminal groups who use it to divide us and dominate our communities, our resources, and our labour? Are you willing to continue to sit by helplessly, and pay all the costs, while our personal choices shrink?

I suggest we organise ourselves to make another Citizens' Initiative in the coming year, in order to get the message out loudly and clearly to the major political parties that they have served us ill and we have had enough of being managed. I have been encouraged regarding this electoral reform and I am hoping those who responded to the first Initiative will help with this one. It's not about any one individual or party, it's about self-governance for all British Columbians.

Both the Fight HST petition and the recalls address only the symptoms of our problems in BC. We need to address the causes and we have to work together, not competing against each other.

Even with the best of intentions, political parties are very divisive, even internally. They inhibit free speech and hinder information flow, rather than facilitating them. By their nature they polarise us and limit our options. Instead of integrating our diverse needs into a common vision, we are forced to take sides, not find common ground. We need to find the important things we have in common and pursue those in a way that we can all support.

(cont'd to next post)

Doris Foster said...

Electoral Reform (cont'd)

Democracy without participation can never be real self-governance, under any electoral system or decision-making process. It's up to us to change our circumstances, by increasing our willing involvement. We've also got to insist upon the means to make participation in the decisions that impact our lives both efficient and effective. As experiences with the present Initiative and Recall legislation have shown, there is a lot of room for improvement!

The one single thing that I believe would contribute most to improving our ability to participate equally, constructively, and cooperatively in genuine self-governance, and which is an essential part of the ability to change our votes when we see fit, is for us to build permanent “electoral offices” in every rural community and urban neighbourhood where we ordinarily vote at temporary voting stations. I envision these offices as large enough and equipped to serve as a meeting place for community members to share information, ideas, discussions, and communications, with each other, with their elected and potential representatives, and with other communities.

Even those not yet of voting age could contribute their input and ideas to the process. What better way could we encourage our young citizens to take up an empowered and responsible role in their communities? Communities would determine the days and hours of their own offices. The ultimate purpose would be to arrive at mutually beneficial collaborative solutions to the challenges and problems we face. The intelligence, experience, and ingenuity of all community members, regardless of age or circumstances, would be available. These offices would support citizens to achieve mutual understanding and cohesiveness amongst themselves.

The offices I am proposing would be very economical because they could be used to record our votes for representatives at every level of government ~ votes that all eligible voters could place or change at will, thus effectively and efficiently keeping elected representatives accountable at all times. Their use could easily be expanded to include both municipal and federal representation and issues.

If our representatives know we can change our votes, they will listen to us in a very different way than what passes for “consultations” now. They will be properly motivated to become skilled in their work, not just at competing for power. If situations do arise in which voters are dissatisfied and decide to change their votes in sufficient numbers to allow an alternative candidate to potentially replace an elected MLA, it is still entirely up to the MLA to either respond to the voters, improve their relationships, change or justify his/her actions to the voters' satisfaction, or vacate the position.

Please demand and support a citizen's initiative in BC for electoral reform to obtain a vote we can change and permanent electoral offices to facilitate cooperative community and provincial self-governance.

A Vote you cannot change at will is not a vote at all.

Anonymous said...

Not Fair? Just as Wayne just stated. Ida went along with BC Rail, HST, and a bunch of other stuff. How much corruption is it going to take to wake the people up and make them realize we no longer can go on like this. This old political system is failing and has done nuthing but fail us in the past. We need a Direct Democracy system in place where the people are the sole authority of Bc, The people can implement accountability on politicians and any other public servant. This includes Judges, Police, Military any public servant who is not doing a fair job or is knowingly committing treason can and will be fired by the people. Next the people will implement full transparency so they know exactly where their tax dollars are going to.
The only party in Bc that gives a damn and wants to better peoples lives is the BC Refed Party www.refedbc.com 123 step plan plus they have a drafted constitution that protects the people. Not just an act of parliament thats been written full of holes. BC Refed Check them out, Join and spread the word! Vote yourselves into power! Ed Anderson Bc Refed Party Member

Anonymous said...

What the present government has done to the residents of bc isnt fair, more criminal in fact. RECALL is our final option to show polititions they are accountable and have to listen to the majority. A refederation government would be the better option than to have to go through all the government and corperate induced burden on the taxpayers backs.

Anonymous said...

Recall has to succeed.
If it does not direct Democracy
suffers.
Frankly I don't care what the issue is in fact were it an NDP MLA taken to task I would still wish it to succeed.
Should recall fail then we are all the worse off.

Xanadu said...

Not bad Doris, but who are you pleading to? Too many people here won't go to the toilet unless Bill advises and we know for certain that Bill is deeply opposed to electoral reform. We first of all need a government that is willing to change the rules of the game and that will never happen as long we are voting for the two major parties of the day. Today it is Liberal and NDP so let's shift our support elsewhere, but carefully because the Conservatives will merely supplant the Liberals and whoever we pick to be the other party of record may do the same with the NDP. Then we must avoid those parties and so on and so on until we simply stop voting except of course there will still be somebody in charge refusing to give up power. "Democracy" is a no-win scenario for us all.

QueenOfKings said...

Nothing that hasn't been said before but then again how often do we hear something from Bill T that isn't regurgitated? So without further ado, some "type" bites from the most recent display of insanity - you know, trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I've forgotten is this one about HST or Recall or Electoral Reform, I can't tell from these quotes. Oh well, what does it matter, right? As long as it sells.

. . . your democratic rights are a threat to their privileged existence. Because it takes a small measure of power away from politicians and puts it in the hands of voters. Sound crazy? Insulting? Offensive?

You bet it is.

Exactly -- the system where voters elect a government that misleads them and then ignores their concerns and objections for four years can't work .

That's why MLAs who don't fear their voters should do what Premier Gordon Campbell promised to do. But don't count on it.

Empowered voters are way too threatening to all politicians.

. . . tell any leadership candidate from the BC Liberals or NDP or BC Conservatives . . . wait isn't there a faction missing from that list? Oh, yes the Green Party. Isn't that interesting, the only sizeable party that doesn't feel that free votes in Legislature are a bad idea. Stick to the parties that you know can't be trusted, make sure they lie to you again about how they value your opinion, promise that they will deliver the wishes of the people and Oops!, it happened again.

Don't let politicians take away your power. Not when we have Bill to talk people out of wanting to have that power.

Only an idiot thinks that either Recall or Initiative have any hope of success under the current regime. As we all know, there was a glimmer of hope for non-violent regime change but it was snuffed out in the 2009 referendum. That was our opportunity to see positive change in perhaps a generation or two. Maybe longer, certainly not right away. Who knows how long it would have taken to get responsible people in government instead of the current brand of criminal, elitist children that populate the Legislature. But now is there any chance? Let's not pretend that after more than two years of a failed campaign using "legislation (which) is already seriously flawed to the point of making it nearly impossible to succeed" that the voters of BC will have any more power than before.

We have to fix the system by putting people in power that actually want to fix the system. Seeing that the first Recall is about to fail and another every 60 days or so(?) until the Initiative Referendum fails, care to brainstorm some more nuggets of wishdom? Just be sure to stay away from proportional representation, god forbid that more than 24% of the province has a say in who gets to play dictator next. And thanks Bill for continually allowing me to point out how ridiculous you sound.

Skookum1 said...

Kiboshing recall because it's unfair to MLAs?? What about kiboshing MLAs because they're unfair to voters?

This is just another demonstration of the failure of the political parties to represent the desires of constituents. Even the much-vaunted fixed election date is now being used as a reason for the incoming Liberal premier, whomever we get saddled with, to postpone letting the public vote until 2013 instead of, as is customary, right away.

Add in "no recall", which is something like giving these assholes tenure, is just another way of saying "what the public wants doesn't count, and once an MLA is in office they can vote as they please....or as they're told by their party bosses".

Don't kill recall. Kill the party system.

Skookum1 said...

@Doris - another inititiative shouldn't just be about electoral reform - it should be about holding a constitutional convention to come up with wholesale political reforms, not just how we put the party lackeys in their monkey-seats.

Lots to discuss in terms of terms of reference of such a vote and attached convention issues. But among them? Mandatory and severe prison sentences for elected and appointed officials who violate the law, and some mechanism for an independent judiciary and independent police separate from, and forbidden from participation in, political parties.

Anonymous said...

"We have to fix the system by putting people in power that actually want to fix the system"

Complaining and whining perpetually to a hobby blog isn't going to achievce anything.

Get off your can and join the NDP.

Anonymous said...

We have quit the NDP because of people like Waddell and Miller.


Wait a minute, I thought you quit because of Carole James and Moe Sihota, just like Bill Tieleman told you to! Just after he told you to transfer your membership to Bob Simpson's Cariboo North NDP Association which no longer exists.

Bill Tieleman said...

I've never, ever suggested anyone quit the NDP - I would hope lapsed and non-members have joined up to participate in the leadership contest.

Anonymous said...

"I've never, ever suggested anyone quit the NDP - I would hope lapsed and non-members have joined up to participate in the leadership contest."

Agree. Get your rear in gear and kwitcherbeefin'.

G'wan, get goin! Whining through a hobby blog isn't going to do anything.

Anonymous said...

Worst of all. We are stuck with the Liberals, until 2013. The candidates, are already working with the C.O.C. and businesses. Not one of the candidates, have anything for the people, just big business. Campbell thieved our BCR and sold it. De Jong thieves the tax payers dollars to pay all of the two patsies costs. In other words. The Liberals steal from us, we then are forced to pay them, for doing so. Campbell is an evil s.o.b. He belongs in prison, for his corrupt sale of the BCR. So do all the others, who had their dirty, grubby hands, in it as well.

Slyoplfart said...

Well, you say get off your ass and join the NDP? This is very, very personal with me!
NEVER! Join the Liberals maybe? NEVER! People here seem to think only those who belong to the big two have any brains. WRONG! I am 73 years old now and absolutely hate both these parties. WHY! And this is personal and why I shall never forgive these self serving people. Sept 22, 1997 my son was electrocuted while at work. WCB, another self serving bunch of thieves charged the company my son worked for $550,000.00 and I have a copy of the papers to prove this. They, WCB gave my three grandchildren $100.00 a month, $1200 a year, until they reached the age of 19.
The NDP was in power back then and I sent 36, read my lips “36”, NDP MP’s a letter asking for help for these children. This included any one of them associated with children’s affairs.
I got ONE! Letter back from these NDP, Peoples party. ? What a joke! This reply said they would not interfere with the workings of WCB. They care less for even the plight of little children! I also sent Gordon Campbell and two of his sidekicks the same request asking for help for these children. I did not receive even one reply from these Liberal jerks.
So you see, it is not just because Moe hides in opponent’s closets, listening to their conversations to force their resignations and when caught red handed himself did not resign. He like Christy Clark was hired by news people to run a show. This shows how much I love News people too.
If you here want to climb in bed with these slimy, despicable people, that is your choice.
But not me! I will fight to my death to do whatever I can to get rid of all of them.
Wayne Russell

Anonymous said...

Support Mike Farnworth!

Go Mikey.

QueenOfKings said...

Anon 11:03 said:
"Complaining and whining perpetually to a hobby blog isn't going to achievce anything.

Get off your can and join the NDP."

Genius, sheer genius. As you seem unaware, allow me to explain. The NDP is the second biggest problem with our provincial political system. Only the Liberals are worse.

Or perhaps you meant to "get involved and be part of the nominating process so that I will see somebody running that I can support", you know - help shape the NDP to better represent me.

Then why the NDP, Einstein? Wouldn't the Liberal party accomplish the same task for me? Or any other party, wouldn't I be better off just starting my own party?

Let's face it, the NDP is just as crooked as the Liberals, I don't want either in power. I thank you for your pointless suggestion but I'm already doing what I can to help bring about change. Being here is part of it, whether it has any success or not is arguable and probably indeterminate.

On the other hand, your insistence that I take specific action has accomplished nothing because I still have no plans to join the lesser half of our corrupt government so from my point of view it is you who is achieving nothing with your methods.

You think you can improve the situation by working within the system and I am of the opinion that we need to work on the problem from outside the problem.

Now if you were able to give me a solid reason to trust the NDP, then you might have something. I'll watch to see if you can think of anything but I'm not holding my breath.

outsourced - Alan said...

I don't get it. QueenOfKings and other quacks and Trolls write in a thriving basically NDP blog that we shouldn't support the NDP. Why? They are like the Liberals? But that makes no sense. The BC Liberals are a corrupt Party and sold public assets for private gain. Sure the BC NDP made mistakes, but they did NOTHING in comparison to the BC Liberals. The BC NDP at least promise to support working and poor people and it does, at least from my perspective. The BC Liberals are there to serve themselves and the big corporations. So the choice is clear, if you work for a living. If you don't vote. Then you have no say and you get what others decide for you. Since the best way for the BC Liberals to stay in power is to get ordinary people to stay home and not vote, apathy and pessimism are their weapons. Get a life and join the only party that can at least promise to help make things more equitable. Tax the rich and make things here. Stop outsourcing. Use a little common sense. We will always be a colonial outpost until we make things here. -- sorry - I got carried away - that was clear overstatement, we will always be a colonial outpost full of pretentious pundits spouting non-sense. The rich and powerful do not want referenda and recall to work because who would willingly accept control by the large corporations. You don't get a "say" unless you fight for it!

Skookum1 said...

"Complaining and whining perpetually to a hobby blog isn't going to achievce anything.

ROTFL. Well, I tell you what boyo, "hobby blogs" have done more to advance the cause of truth and challenge the Liberals and BC Rail on critical issues than the NDP have ever shown any gumption to. The Opposition has been a useless turkey since the Joy-and-Jenny show, when they were at least principled and LOUD. Krog's waffling on BC Rail was shameful, and I can't say I've heard any of the leadership hopefuls say anything useful about BC Rail or the mounting calls for a public inquiry. Those originated in these here "hobby blogs", not from any NDPer - other than Bill, but even his journalistic blog here you've described as a "hoby blog". To me the NDP is a broken hobby-horse, and BC politics has reached an impasses between two polarities that have long outlived their usefulness; the party system, caucus solidarity, etc should all be scrapped; retrenching the NDP - and being patient to wait for 2013 to do that - is utter folly. And you know what? It's lack of vision, lack of real new ideas, and insisting that people learn to think like NDPers instead of the NDP really listening to people, that's the NDP's problem.....cooling the jets 'til 2013 just ain't gonna wash, the public is tired of both parties and looking for change (those that are looking at all, and not plugged into their widescreen HDTVs or shopping at the mall).

And as for calling someone like me a Liberal troll (LMAO) because I'm a critic of the NDP is just more either/or politics of division, "you're either with us, or agin' us" talk. Sorry, my mind doesn't get led down the garden path by goats, OK? And neither will my vote, or my voice.

QueenOfKings said...

outsourced - Alan said :

"I don't get it." - True

"QueenOfKings . . . write in a . . . NDP blog that we shouldn't support the NDP." - True

"Why? They are like the Liberals?" - True

"But that makes no sense." - False

"The BC Liberals are a corrupt Party and sold public assets for private gain." - True

"Sure the BC NDP made mistakes, but they did NOTHING in comparison to the BC Liberals." - True/False

"The BC NDP at least promise to support working and poor people and it does, at least from my perspective." - True (remind me again of the value of a political promise)

"The BC Liberals are there to serve themselves and the big corporations." - True

"So the choice is clear, if you work for a living." - False ( actually it's right off the scale but it's as close as I could get in this scoring system)

"If you don't vote. Then you have no say and you get what others decide for you." - False and False

"Since the best way for the BC Liberals to stay in power is to get ordinary people to stay home and not vote, apathy and pessimism are their weapons." - False

"Get a life and join the only party that can at least promise to help make things more equitable."

Ah, a command rather than a statement. And I should listen to you, why? The only things you manage to get correct are completely irrelevant. I know you read the post you are replying to yet despite showing my interest in a reason to trust the NDP, all I hear from you are that they make false promises. Wasn't that what got the other guys that you disagree are the same as the NDP elected?

"Tax the rich and make things here. Stop outsourcing. Use a little common sense."

Let me see if I have this straight. The rich lawmakers should tax themselves and we should take jobs away from the poor. Got it, continue with the common sense part.

"We . . . colonial outpost until . . . colonial outpost full of pretentious pundits spouting non-sense." - not sure what this was about but the word always was in there so I'll go with False

"The rich, powerful do not want referenda, recall to work" - True

"because who would willingly accept control by the large corporations." - oh, I don't know. The NDP?

"You don't get a "say" unless you fight for it!" - False

Got some news for you, bub. I have an "opinion" whether you like it or not. You have just as much right to turn a deaf ear if you want. You can try to bully people with rhetoric until the cows come home but you nor anybody else can take away my freedom of thought. Censorship may limit or prevent a message from being conveyed to others but it can only be extinguished when the messenger agrees to stop fighting. And I think I'm much more willing to fight than you are so I'm going to keep saying the following:

The Liberals stink and I want no part of them.
The NDP stink and I want no part of them.
Our electoral system stinks and I want no part of it.
And as a result of all these our governance stinks and I want no part of it.

You mentioned choice, yet despite my preference for lack of external governance it is imposed upon me in numerous facets of my life. This absence of freedom will be there even when the NDP regain power, at least I assume they will. And it will be more of the same, only different. Maybe you can get excited about that but it does nothing for me.

QueenOfKings,
Activist and Worker