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| Bill Tieleman, Bill Vander Zalm at news conference August 26 after historic Fight HST referendum victory. - photo courtesy of Cassandra |
Voters Turning Back HST Teach Key Lessons
Tuesday August 30, 2011
By Bill Tieleman
"There is no real power in money, power is in the vote."
- Henry Wise Wood, Grain Growers Guide, 1920
The Harmonized Sales Tax referendum vote last week to kill the tax taught some important lessons -- but is the B.C. government and big business listening?
First, the HST is a stunning illustration to politicians across Canada of what happens when you mislead voters before an election and surprise them after.
Denying that the BC Liberal Party had HST plans prior to the May 2009 vote and then announcing in July the HST would be imposed cost Premier Gordon Campbell his job -- despite winning three elections.
Second, not consulting voters about the HST only heightened suspicion and anger.
No studies, no public meetings -- nothing happened before Campbell claimed the HST was "the single biggest thing we can do to improve B.C.'s economy."
Third, the BC Liberals stubbornly refused to listen to British Columbians who disagreed with the HST and didn't want to pay an extra seven per cent tax on hundreds of goods and services.
To an alarming degree still voiced by some government supporters, anyone who didn't endorse the HST was denounced as stupid or worse.
"The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about," was one HST backer's arrogant Twitter comment that was reTweeted repeatedly Sunday.
Presumably he thinks the 881,198 people who voted 55 per cent Yes to extinguish the HST were idiots while the 728,927 voting No to keep the HST were geniuses.
Denial after millions spent spinning
Those in the business community who heavily backed the HST through the Smart Tax Alliance were only slightly more restrained but equally in denial about the results.
"The B.C. government, I think, has got now to sit down with business and all stakeholders and perhaps develop a Son-of-HST version that is a consumption tax, that is a fair consumption tax and allow it to not have to refocus its efforts on business taxes or on income taxes, which was their goal," according to BC Chamber of Commerce president John Winter.
Big business was equally unhappy at the loss -- and the end to a $2 billion annual tax shift from its members to consumers.
"This is a very, very, big setback for the business community and for building a competitive and productive B.C. economy," Jock Finlayson, vice-president of the Business Council of BC told the Vancouver Sun. "It's not just business that will be affected. It's the provincial economy as a whole."
That's why the Smart Tax Alliance was well-financed to run a television, radio, print, Internet ad campaign by FD Element [now being re-named FTI Consulting] -- the agency that also ran the failed 2009 pro-Single Transferable Vote TV ad efforts -- and a Prime Contact telephone campaign by the firm that helped install right-wing Toronto Mayor Rob Ford in office.
That all came at a cost that the Smart Tax Alliance still refuses to disclose -- and doesn't have to because the Clark government helpfully excluded mandatory financial reporting rules that apply to elections, initiatives and other referenda from the HST vote.
Spending limits were also not applied, leaving the sky the limit for STA propaganda.
That means voters will never know what the Coal Association, the Petroleum Producers, the Council of Forest Industries, the Mining Association, the New Car Dealers and others spent to try and win the referendum.
But with prime time STA television ads run through the Stanley Cup playoffs and top rated TV shows, it's highly likely that $10 to $20 million was spent.
BC's hungry film industry
Few were as unhappy as those from the $1 billion film and television industry, which helped lead the pro-HST charge.
Peter Leitch, chair of the Motion Picture Production Industry Association of BC and co-chair of the Smart Tax Alliance, said defeat of the HST was "a real blow."
"Now we are now going to have to go down to Los Angeles and tell them we won't have the benefits of the HST," he told the Sun, noting that the HST saved the industry $20-25 million a year.
But Leitch doesn't like talking about the already existing massive government subsidies given by the B.C. government to the industry.
Movie and television companies can get a basic 33 per cent tax credit on labour used while filming in B.C., plus up to 12 per cent more for shooting outside Vancouver. Digital animation and visual effects can get an extra 17.5 per cent tax credit too.
B.C.-owned companies can get even larger tax credits -- a basic 35 per cent break on qualified labour, distance incentives and a 30 per cent training credit.
Those taxpayer-funded incentives have amounted to nearly $200 million a year, leading to the question -- how much more does the film industry want from government?
Business was not united
But those are the HST winners in business. There were losers who will benefit when the HST is finally removed. Restaurant owners, hair stylists, consultants, home renovation and repair companies massage therapists, bicycle stores, gyms and other businesses all had to charge their customers an extra seven per cent tax for nothing.
Representatives of some of those business sectors were pleased.
"We're happy, very happy for the restaurant owners and we're really happy for the restaurant guests," Ian Tostenson, president of the BC Restaurant and Foodservices Association, told the Vancouver Sun. "This is going to give them a break." "I'm very happy. They made my day today," fitness club owner Ron Zalko told CTV News on Friday.
Not listening to either voters or business owners hurt by the HST showed that those running the government were truly foolish, especially when poll after poll showed massive opposition to the HST.
That foolishness continued when the BC Liberals ignored Fight HST, the grassroots group I helped form with ex-premier Bill Vander Zalm, ex-Unity Party leader Chris Delaney and others, to oppose the tax.
Democracy wasn't for sale
The government also paid no attention to the phenomenal growth of my Facebook protest group NO BC HST, which skyrocketed to over 136,000 members in a few short months, briefly eclipsing even the Vancouver Canucks fan page.
They didn't believe Fight HST could possibly make the extremely difficult citizens initiative legislation work -- but it did, with 705,643 signatures gathered in 90 days in B.C.'s 85 ridings.
Then Premier Christy Clark rashly thought a $5 million government ad campaign, and a big business effort likely worth $15 to $20 million, plus an HST rate cut promise years away, could buy the vote.
Wrong again. The people weren't selling their democracy.
Despite being outspent by up to 100 to 1, Fight HST won a referendum with a handful of lawn signs and a few radio ads against an overwhelming government and business advertising blitz.
But had BC Liberals simply listened, Campbell would still be premier and Clark would only be running a radio talk show, not the province.
As Vander Zalm put it Friday: "The people of British Columbia stood the line against the biggest powers of this province and won. The little guy won today. This is one for the little guy."
Misinformation in the media
And despite 25 months of near constant debate and discussion of the HST, some in the media remain oblivious to the obvious and the facts.
For example, some have said the BC Liberals could have survived if Campbell had stuck to the Recall and Initiative Act rules instead of promising a binding, majority rule vote under the Referendum Act.
That's because the initiative provisions require 50 per cent plus one of all registered voters to approve -- not just the votes of those who return a ballot -- and a majority in two-thirds of all ridings.
By that extremely onerous standard, the HST would have been retained.
But those commentators forget that the Initiative Act provisions would not have made repealing the HST binding -- it would only have forced the government to introduce the Fight HST legislation to get rid of the tax into the Legislature -- but not even call it for a vote, let alone pass it.
Practically speaking however, should the vote have been conducted under the initiative provisions and passed with 55 to 45 per cent but not have met the "supermajority" conditions, the BC Liberals would still be in an enormous bind.
Would they reject the obvious majority vote of those participating and keep the HST in place but risking both immediate recall campaigns against their MLAs and political suicide whenever the next election took place?
Or would they have had to ditch the HST anyway, aggravating business supporters who would claim they won because of the rules?
The California nightmare myth
And so much for B.C. turning into referendum-happy but broke California.
There's no chance of that because of the difficulty of the initiative rules. But the province should make direct democracy more of an option for voters by improving the recall and initiative legislation as the BC Liberals promised to do in 2001.
Some in the media have also accepted as fact Finance Minister Kevin Falcon's claims that defeat of the HST leaves a "$3 billion hole" in B.C.'s budget.
But how was it that B.C. could promise to cut the HST to 11 per cent in 2012 and 10 per cent in 2014 without losing the roughly $1 billion per percentage point cut in the tax? How were they going to deal with that enormous cut to government revenues?
And much has been made of the one-time $1.6 billion grant from the federal Conservative government to impose the HST that will now have to be repaid.
The HST was already raising an extra $800 million a year, according to the government-appointed "independent panel" that reported on the HST -- which Campbell had promised was "revenue neutral" when it was introduced.
Some of that additional money can be used to pay back the apparently interest-free loan from Ottawa.
But who gives money for nothing? The federal government knew it would be making all that back and more over a short period of time in higher tax revenues.
And why did the government spend over $600 million on a new retractable roof for B.C. Place if it was worried about its finances, especially with the HST at risk? Or $3 billion on a new Port Mann Bridge instead of the cheaper option of expanding the existing structure?
Campbell's costly miscalculations
Now we will see how good a negotiator Clark and Falcon are, because B.C. should at least see that grant reduced by a pro-rated amount for the period of time the HST was in place -- likely two years by the time it's wrapped up -- or 40 per cent of the five year agreement.
The reality is that a desperate Gordon Campbell, who had told voters before the 2009 election that the B.C. deficit was no more than $495 million, was wrong by six-fold -- and knew he would be roasted for it.
He made a hasty deal with the Ottawa devil to try and buy his way out of financial trouble with the $1.6 billion grant.
And in his hubris, Campbell ignored all political warning signs, as did his government.
Only Peace River South MLA Blair Lekstrom -- who quit both cabinet and caucus to protest the way the HST was being rammed down British Columbians' throats -- could see the storm on the horizon as his constituents rebelled. And then he quickly jumped back into cabinet when Clark took over.
The HST referendum results are now history -- and a victory for democracy, against all the odds.
.
First, the HST is a stunning illustration to politicians across Canada of what happens when you mislead voters before an election and surprise them after.
Denying that the BC Liberal Party had HST plans prior to the May 2009 vote and then announcing in July the HST would be imposed cost Premier Gordon Campbell his job -- despite winning three elections.
Second, not consulting voters about the HST only heightened suspicion and anger.
No studies, no public meetings -- nothing happened before Campbell claimed the HST was "the single biggest thing we can do to improve B.C.'s economy."
Third, the BC Liberals stubbornly refused to listen to British Columbians who disagreed with the HST and didn't want to pay an extra seven per cent tax on hundreds of goods and services.
To an alarming degree still voiced by some government supporters, anyone who didn't endorse the HST was denounced as stupid or worse.
"The highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about," was one HST backer's arrogant Twitter comment that was reTweeted repeatedly Sunday.
Presumably he thinks the 881,198 people who voted 55 per cent Yes to extinguish the HST were idiots while the 728,927 voting No to keep the HST were geniuses.
Denial after millions spent spinning
Those in the business community who heavily backed the HST through the Smart Tax Alliance were only slightly more restrained but equally in denial about the results.
"The B.C. government, I think, has got now to sit down with business and all stakeholders and perhaps develop a Son-of-HST version that is a consumption tax, that is a fair consumption tax and allow it to not have to refocus its efforts on business taxes or on income taxes, which was their goal," according to BC Chamber of Commerce president John Winter.
Big business was equally unhappy at the loss -- and the end to a $2 billion annual tax shift from its members to consumers.
"This is a very, very, big setback for the business community and for building a competitive and productive B.C. economy," Jock Finlayson, vice-president of the Business Council of BC told the Vancouver Sun. "It's not just business that will be affected. It's the provincial economy as a whole."
That's why the Smart Tax Alliance was well-financed to run a television, radio, print, Internet ad campaign by FD Element [now being re-named FTI Consulting] -- the agency that also ran the failed 2009 pro-Single Transferable Vote TV ad efforts -- and a Prime Contact telephone campaign by the firm that helped install right-wing Toronto Mayor Rob Ford in office.
That all came at a cost that the Smart Tax Alliance still refuses to disclose -- and doesn't have to because the Clark government helpfully excluded mandatory financial reporting rules that apply to elections, initiatives and other referenda from the HST vote.
Spending limits were also not applied, leaving the sky the limit for STA propaganda.
That means voters will never know what the Coal Association, the Petroleum Producers, the Council of Forest Industries, the Mining Association, the New Car Dealers and others spent to try and win the referendum.
But with prime time STA television ads run through the Stanley Cup playoffs and top rated TV shows, it's highly likely that $10 to $20 million was spent.
BC's hungry film industry
Few were as unhappy as those from the $1 billion film and television industry, which helped lead the pro-HST charge.
Peter Leitch, chair of the Motion Picture Production Industry Association of BC and co-chair of the Smart Tax Alliance, said defeat of the HST was "a real blow."
"Now we are now going to have to go down to Los Angeles and tell them we won't have the benefits of the HST," he told the Sun, noting that the HST saved the industry $20-25 million a year.
But Leitch doesn't like talking about the already existing massive government subsidies given by the B.C. government to the industry.
Movie and television companies can get a basic 33 per cent tax credit on labour used while filming in B.C., plus up to 12 per cent more for shooting outside Vancouver. Digital animation and visual effects can get an extra 17.5 per cent tax credit too.
B.C.-owned companies can get even larger tax credits -- a basic 35 per cent break on qualified labour, distance incentives and a 30 per cent training credit.
Those taxpayer-funded incentives have amounted to nearly $200 million a year, leading to the question -- how much more does the film industry want from government?
Business was not united
But those are the HST winners in business. There were losers who will benefit when the HST is finally removed. Restaurant owners, hair stylists, consultants, home renovation and repair companies massage therapists, bicycle stores, gyms and other businesses all had to charge their customers an extra seven per cent tax for nothing.
Representatives of some of those business sectors were pleased.
"We're happy, very happy for the restaurant owners and we're really happy for the restaurant guests," Ian Tostenson, president of the BC Restaurant and Foodservices Association, told the Vancouver Sun. "This is going to give them a break." "I'm very happy. They made my day today," fitness club owner Ron Zalko told CTV News on Friday.
Not listening to either voters or business owners hurt by the HST showed that those running the government were truly foolish, especially when poll after poll showed massive opposition to the HST.
That foolishness continued when the BC Liberals ignored Fight HST, the grassroots group I helped form with ex-premier Bill Vander Zalm, ex-Unity Party leader Chris Delaney and others, to oppose the tax.
Democracy wasn't for sale
The government also paid no attention to the phenomenal growth of my Facebook protest group NO BC HST, which skyrocketed to over 136,000 members in a few short months, briefly eclipsing even the Vancouver Canucks fan page.
They didn't believe Fight HST could possibly make the extremely difficult citizens initiative legislation work -- but it did, with 705,643 signatures gathered in 90 days in B.C.'s 85 ridings.
Then Premier Christy Clark rashly thought a $5 million government ad campaign, and a big business effort likely worth $15 to $20 million, plus an HST rate cut promise years away, could buy the vote.
Wrong again. The people weren't selling their democracy.
Despite being outspent by up to 100 to 1, Fight HST won a referendum with a handful of lawn signs and a few radio ads against an overwhelming government and business advertising blitz.
But had BC Liberals simply listened, Campbell would still be premier and Clark would only be running a radio talk show, not the province.
As Vander Zalm put it Friday: "The people of British Columbia stood the line against the biggest powers of this province and won. The little guy won today. This is one for the little guy."
Misinformation in the media
And despite 25 months of near constant debate and discussion of the HST, some in the media remain oblivious to the obvious and the facts.
For example, some have said the BC Liberals could have survived if Campbell had stuck to the Recall and Initiative Act rules instead of promising a binding, majority rule vote under the Referendum Act.
That's because the initiative provisions require 50 per cent plus one of all registered voters to approve -- not just the votes of those who return a ballot -- and a majority in two-thirds of all ridings.
By that extremely onerous standard, the HST would have been retained.
But those commentators forget that the Initiative Act provisions would not have made repealing the HST binding -- it would only have forced the government to introduce the Fight HST legislation to get rid of the tax into the Legislature -- but not even call it for a vote, let alone pass it.
Practically speaking however, should the vote have been conducted under the initiative provisions and passed with 55 to 45 per cent but not have met the "supermajority" conditions, the BC Liberals would still be in an enormous bind.
Would they reject the obvious majority vote of those participating and keep the HST in place but risking both immediate recall campaigns against their MLAs and political suicide whenever the next election took place?
Or would they have had to ditch the HST anyway, aggravating business supporters who would claim they won because of the rules?
The California nightmare myth
And so much for B.C. turning into referendum-happy but broke California.
There's no chance of that because of the difficulty of the initiative rules. But the province should make direct democracy more of an option for voters by improving the recall and initiative legislation as the BC Liberals promised to do in 2001.
Some in the media have also accepted as fact Finance Minister Kevin Falcon's claims that defeat of the HST leaves a "$3 billion hole" in B.C.'s budget.
But how was it that B.C. could promise to cut the HST to 11 per cent in 2012 and 10 per cent in 2014 without losing the roughly $1 billion per percentage point cut in the tax? How were they going to deal with that enormous cut to government revenues?
And much has been made of the one-time $1.6 billion grant from the federal Conservative government to impose the HST that will now have to be repaid.
The HST was already raising an extra $800 million a year, according to the government-appointed "independent panel" that reported on the HST -- which Campbell had promised was "revenue neutral" when it was introduced.
Some of that additional money can be used to pay back the apparently interest-free loan from Ottawa.
But who gives money for nothing? The federal government knew it would be making all that back and more over a short period of time in higher tax revenues.
And why did the government spend over $600 million on a new retractable roof for B.C. Place if it was worried about its finances, especially with the HST at risk? Or $3 billion on a new Port Mann Bridge instead of the cheaper option of expanding the existing structure?
Campbell's costly miscalculations
Now we will see how good a negotiator Clark and Falcon are, because B.C. should at least see that grant reduced by a pro-rated amount for the period of time the HST was in place -- likely two years by the time it's wrapped up -- or 40 per cent of the five year agreement.
The reality is that a desperate Gordon Campbell, who had told voters before the 2009 election that the B.C. deficit was no more than $495 million, was wrong by six-fold -- and knew he would be roasted for it.
He made a hasty deal with the Ottawa devil to try and buy his way out of financial trouble with the $1.6 billion grant.
And in his hubris, Campbell ignored all political warning signs, as did his government.
Only Peace River South MLA Blair Lekstrom -- who quit both cabinet and caucus to protest the way the HST was being rammed down British Columbians' throats -- could see the storm on the horizon as his constituents rebelled. And then he quickly jumped back into cabinet when Clark took over.
The HST referendum results are now history -- and a victory for democracy, against all the odds.
.
65 comments:
You know Bill . . . You, Chris and Bill remind me of the 1960s TV show . . . THE UNTOUCHABLES!
The Zalm looks as tough as Robert Stack when he played Eliot Ness in the original show.
And regarding the "politics and corruption" what's the difference between Chicago in 1931 under Al "scarface" Capone and BC under Christy "cute & perky" Clark in 2011?!
The GREAT SATAN
I just read the comment by Mr Satan. It was a great statement and how true it is. I just heard on CFAX radio whereby Mr. Abbot is commenting on the Teachers Contract. He stated no wage increases. The gentle voters of BC just stated No increase in taxes via the HST. Is this statement unfair in labour relations?
ROLLBACKS!!!! 15% rollbacks on wages for all government workes including teachers, doctors, nurses, etc. Union workers too. PST is going up. Individual taxes rates will increase. It's going to hurt most of you.
To me, the HST was all a lie and a scam. I blame, Campbell, Hansen and Harper. TOTALLY.
Not one thing promised by, Campbell, Hansen and big business, never, ever materialized. They had no intention of keeping their word, and we damn well knew it.
BC still has the lowest minimum wage, in the country. The highest cost of living. No new HST jobs. No HST money saved, from big business. Nada, But, because big businesses are bottomless pits of greed. The Liberals, selling our assets, and pissing away our tax money. We have no right to, be damned good and mad. Campbell has completely destroyed this province. And, Christy is determined, to carry on Campbell's, lying and corrupt legacy. Perhaps Harper, will appoint Christy as High Commissioner to Columbia, or, somewhere or, anywhere please.
I am so very pleased regarding the "yes" vote! It worked!
I think the lieberals and big business will continue on the same route. I doubt they will read the results in the same way many of us do.
clarke and Falcon's comments are now trying to set the stage for cut backs, etc.
People are being taxed into the poor house in this province, without getting anything back. It is time a review of the tax system took place, keeping in mind Warren Buffet's comments regarding the mega-rich paying their fair share.
Natural resources are extracted from this province and sent to other countries with not much benefit to B.C. The few jobs created do not even come close to the amount of money taken out of B.C.
I suspect the next thing to be sold is the B.C. Ferries.
Just out of curiosity, had 5% of British Columbian voters swung the other way and the people chosen to maintain the HST, would it -not- have been a 'victory for democracy'?
@Rollbacks
you forgot to include ending corporate welfare and increasing elite taxation 15%
Suggested reading for all followers of this blog:
http://www.theprovince.com/opinion/Guest+column+followers+aren+living+real+world/5326943/story.html
Agree/Disagree ?
John, Jock and others are only interested in lining their own pockets at the expense of the taxpaying majority in BC. If it makes a $ then it belongs to THEM. Campbell literally 'gave' away any profit from public assets to 'friends' and did so in the most deceitful and arrogant manner. BC Rail, BC Hydro, Forests, Natural Gas, ICBC premiums, BC Ferries and others. These all produced revenue FOR THE TAXPAYERS of the province but were co-opted by this miserable man. The two billion a year transfer to business by the HST just ads insult to injury. ( He is laughing in his comfortable position in London.) Bill there has to be a political way to correct this.
Burgess
First of all, I wish to thank the voters who saw that the truth is not in the speak of liberals. The three wise men led the mission to find the facts. Now that man in Calgary suggested 120,000 jobs over 10 years. The dependant independent panel proclaimed 24,000 disgracing the BS ing bum from Calgary. Even our disgraced Mr. Campbell outlined only 50,000 such jobs. Do all liberal only tell the truth when a lie will not do? You can fool some of the people all the time but you can not fool all the people all the time. Speaking of fools, Ms Clark is leading that ship. Two ship rats have jumped overboard. More to follow. Mr. Campbell should be recalled as the appointment was a plum to introduce the baby HST. It is disgusting that a DUI gentleman is our face in London. Policial reward at tax payers expense. Only an election will solve this problem but Ms. Clark and her team are like chickens with their heads cut over. Finally, I prodick Mr. Fal con will loose his temper. He is the big loser and only the Sickman bother me more. A resignation is in order.Mr. Fal Con do the honourable thing. Respect may follow.
First, any Value Added Tax like the HST is disproportionately weighted against the poor and middle classes:
Poor people pay HST on 100% of their income because they spend 100% of their income. Better off people; who don't have to spend 100% of their income in the year, are only taxed on that portion of their income which they spend. So generally speaking the richer you are, the less the HST affects you.
Second, the threat of recall to force a referendum and then winning the referendum against 100 to 1 odds based on the spending which was used by the pro HST camp as opposed to the anti HST camp was almost a miracle. Congratulations!
So I ask you Bill, given that there are many other issues which polls show that people of BC disagree with their 'government' on, are you willing to start another campaign to make direct votes on issues easier here in BC? We all know we are being conned out of future for lack of a voice in government.
To Anon 11:16 p.m. - I fully support improved legislation to make citizens Initiatives and Recall more functional - with the emphasis on "citizens".
Unfortunately, the HST referendum demonstrated how big business and big money can potentially overwhelm citizens - with no financial disclosure and no spending limits we will never know how much they spent to support the HST.
But a reasonable guess is $15 to $20 million spent by the Smart Tax Alliance - an impossibly large amount for any true citizens' group to raise simply to be on a level playing field. And not to mention the $5 million plus ad campaign by the BC Liberal government using our tax dollars.
I don't want BC to become California, where big money has unduly influenced referenda - but we can give voters more say without giving up democracy to those with the deepest pockets.
To anon 5:28
You first!
It is now a new day but the smell of the Campbell and Clarke Govt remains. Who ever said things could not get any worst, never met a BC liberal. Their past misadventures are going to dull the record of Govt gone wild. The two comments sandwiched between my comment reflect a feeling shared by many. I will comment that there is an Opel Inquiry,that Govt wish to white wash the excellent work being done by Mr.Opel. In my opinion, Mr. Opel is too good of man to be refer to as BC liberal. The point here is that there should be an official inquiry as to Govt spending in fighting Fight the HST. Could not the inquiry gentle ask SmartforHST,group to register their expense data sheet. Failure to so would convict them in the court of public opinion. Is an election not just a popular contest. Mr. Opel will see justice done.As will the angry voters.Tomorrow I wish to wake up to see a date with the voters box. I will not comment that Ms. and hair Falcon will be further disgraced. Mr. Falcon if you were a good person like Mr. Opel, you would resign and say I am sorry.
As Norm states, "little editorial comment is required" other than unmitigated chicanery! It's unbelieve the people of BC could be so unscrupulously duped for so long.
http://northerninsights.blogspot.com/2010/06/we-can-work-but-we-wont.html
In Canada politicians are permitted, to lie and cheat the people at will.
Our own P.M. Harper, gave a politicians, with the most foul political record in Canadian history...Gordon Campbell, a wonderful appointment, as High Commissioner to England.
This is how degraded Canada has become. Our country, is a deep abyss of corruption.
I so distrust Harper and Falcon that, I don't believe Falcon is meeting Harper to wind down the HST. I think, they will hatch another plot. The same as the HST was plotted, behind our backs.
Christy said, the BC Liberals, must win back the BC citizens trust, while they are busy, stabbing the people in the back.
Bill, you're also forgetting an important addiitonal point.
This is also a lesson for the NDP if and when they end up being government.
DO NOT even THINK about drastic tax changes or increases WITHOUT going to referendum!
and..
DO NOT even THINK about spending huge sums of money on NDP government program advertising.
@ rollbacks.
I agree with rollbacks. We won't see any loss of productivity. Most people are not worth they pay.
As for corporate tax increase and taxing the wealthy, that won't happen.
It's funny the only answer is increasing taxes to the majority and reduction of services. Oh well, if your lucky and rich, life goes on.
I can't even guess how many hours, you and Zalm have given up for the BC people. The entire HST, were very much appreciated.
As well as winning the HST referendum. I feel so much better, with the democracy, all of you won back for the citizens. You have no idea, how bleak and dark, these past ten years have been.
I still can't wrap my mind around, how corrupt the BC Liberals are. They lied and broke their word, on every promise they made. They have no integrity, no morals, nor ethics. Worst of all, they have no shame, for what they did to this province and their own people.
For what it's worth. I think the Liberals, are frantic to stay in office to hide, perhaps, a gigantic mountain of debt?
to 11:05am, Dream on.
The drastic changes coming to us in the near future (meaning increase taxes across the board)is coming. No doubt about it. It's guaranteed just like death. And expect huge service reductions too.
Only a fool can't see this coming and no one or group can stop it. Too bad Tieleman can't come up with any good ideas to pay for our debts except for taxing the rich. Too bad the rich are smart and everything is offshore. You can't tax something when profits aren't reported.
A commenter on the Tyee said it much better than I can. Here is snippet of his post. Shedding_light:
'I suggest we use the same Citizens' Initiative used against the HST, only this time we strike at the root of the problem, not just the latest blossom. We need a referendum on electoral reform, only this time one designed by the voters themselves, to empower voters, not political parties and their leaders.'
the link: http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/08/29/HST-Down-Christy-Clark-To-Follow/
The CITCA_BC (COMPREHENSIVE INTEGRATED TAX COORDINATION AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA) agreement allows for certain product and services to qualify for a point of sales (POS) rebate of the provincial component of HST. Examples of POS may be found in your electricity, natural gas and motor-fuel invoices.
Since HST is a sure-dead duck, the onerous qualification criteria and time-lines for POS should no longer apply. The two governments need to accept that reality. The POS list should be expanded to include all the product and services that were previously PST exempt.
Most of these PST-exempt product and services are distinctive and relatively simple in nature. Transactions are normally simple to conduct. It should be relatively easy to program reseller and restaurant cash registers to show the 7 percent provincial component of HST as rebated. If there is low-hanging fruit (easy to achieve), we should not have to await for the March 31, 2013 transition date.
This change has no impact on revenue to the Federal government. For BC consumers, this would appear like all previous PST exemptions were restored.
In my view, with the political will, the two governments can implement this very quickly. How about November 1, 2011? In time for Holiday celebrations and shopping?
The government previously altered the tax base and/or tax rate under PST through the annual budget normally presented before fiscal year-end. Many changes were implemented within weeks of the budget_usually April 1!
The CITCA-BC provided for the Federal government to administer provincial PST during the transition to HST. Cannot see why it cannot be asked to do so during the transition back to PST.
Thank you Mr Mozooki for your wonderful solution and just a month before X Mas is perfect. As time is a factor and the most important factor. Please allow me to comment further after consideration. If this is possible, what a Chrismas present for many of our follow BC citizens.
The BC Liberal Finance Minister refers to a "$3 billion" hole in the BC government budget arising from its loss of the HST vote. "Oh what a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive. - Sir Walter Scott"
I have reviewed the statement by Mr. Anonymous at 8;47 pm on 31Aug2011.What you suggested is so true. Mr. Fall Con Man is his nose growing,. What is a brown noser.I predicted at least one liberal should resign per week. Mr. Hash smoke some more. Sign that letter. Mr. Opel will be a happy camper. What is it like to be a disgraced cop. An inquiry will disgrace policemen. Just resign and move on and out of public life. Now Mr. Kevan as your nose grows can you not sign the retirement notice. Please make this typist a very happy camper. I think you have a bad temper. Combine that with your BIG ego- fire works. On a positive note, I am still, as my associates are delighted with the advise as given by Mr. Mozooki. I see light at the end oif the tunnel. Ms. Clark stand aside call an election.
hey kennie, what about adrian dix and his fraudlent documents in the past. All politicians are crooks. I hear Dix is getting advise from Carole James. God helps us.
The referendum is a seismic change in BC politics. The people got their chance to say, enough of this BS, BC Government, start telling the truth and quit blowing large amount so our money trying to sell something that was poorly thought out and mishandled so badly. If the present government doesn't understand just how stupid their fumbling has been, its time to change the government. Their priorities aren’t the same priorities that the majority of us consider are correct. Gordo in his wildest vision simply didn't think the people knew better than he and his unsavory gang. Thousands of average BC citizens said” Enough is enough, straighten up and listen to us. Will they understand? They better or else expect to be tossed out in the next election. Thanks to those who worked so hard to get the results that we the average BC citizen wanted.
Really dpl. 45% still don't vote or care. then you split the other 55%. it's a sad state. And don't give us the bull about if you don't vote, you don't matter. I for one hope some sort of rollback to all government and union workers. And yes to all service reductions. That makes most sense.
We, have been duped. It, is truly outrageous. But not, by the Liberals, or big business. We, were deceived, by Bill, Tieleman, Vander Zalm and their friends.
This switch, back to an archaic tax system, will hurt my generation. It is costing, $3 billion, unnecessarily. Vander Zalm said, it would cost nothing, but this, was not true. It will cost, BC jobs, and hurt, the economy. It is sad to see, how many people, were fooled by a political blogger, and a corrupt former premier, with their own agendas. Some of these people, do not even know, how to use a comma.
It is funny, that by the time the PST is back, it would be around the same time, that the HST would have dropped to 10%. 10, is less, than 12. How does this help, low income earners? We, have been cheated.
The Liberals, brought the tax in badly, but this referendum, was not about them. That is what, elections are for. People with political agendas, hijacked the referendum. It is, sad. How is, an additive PST tax, better than a value-added HST? It, is not. Every economist, can tell you this. The Fight HST people, did not care about facts. After the HST press conference, Vander Zalm, drove away, in his $550,000 Mercedes. What does he know, about being poor. Rich people, will suffer least, if the economy tanks. We, have been deceived. It is, a disgrace.
To the uneducated, watch someone post PAB as their response. So lame eh DPL. No hope for the elderly. I won't be voting liberal or ndp. Would rather waste the vote than vote idiots. Hopefully we can privatize health care so they real important people can get served first.
Anonymous Thursday, 1 September, 2011 11:02:00 AM PDT
----------------
Quit your bitching will you, you know jack about being poor.I'm poor and and many like me voted Yes to this evil tax.
Do all of us poor a favor shut up and quit representing us , were poor not stupid, we can voice our own opinions...
11;38, you're going to be alot poorer. Everyone in Ontario is thanking us. Bye bye jobs. Hello to new taxes.
11;38, if you think reverting back to PST is going to solve all your problems, you are an idiot. The government, whether it be liberal or ndp in the future, will just increase taxes elsewhere. PST, carbon, individual, property tax, transit, etc are all going up. And imagine services will be reduced even further. Yes, its good to be rich.
AN open letter to Mr, Anonymous at 10;22am on September 1st,2011.This is just a short note to thank you for your long, well written comment. There are allot of points raised and to be considered. I will definitely enjoy asking you any questions I may have.In the mean time, perhaps you can clarify the statement as to a former Premier. AS MR. Campbell received a DUI is that the man you are talking about?
Anonymous Thursday, 1 September, 2011 12:21:00 PM PDT.
Are you lonely, or is it possible no one will play with you.
First thing Loner, as for ONTARIO thanking BC they have been doing that for years along with QUEBEC. They take but do not give back.
As for being poor that's it you cant be poorer, its sort of like someone being dead you can't make them deader.
In closing ,if you are rich, you won't be for long, your not intelligent enough to handle the stuff, you must have inherited it or found it you obviously are not intelligent enough to have earned it on your own, now run along and go play with the other spoiled Liberal brats.
Poor people don't have to live in BC. The reason deadbeats want to live in BC is for the easy handouts. Right 1:39pm. Yes, reduce services and force people to move out the province. If you are unemployed like 1:39pm, a rational person would move where jobs are. That's assuming you have some education or experience.
hey folks, come up with something original.
1) must work for PAB. lame
2) If your rich, you inherited and will lose it. lame
3) every conspiracy theory in the world. lame
4) aliens. lame
you could tell when an old person post stuff. It's that you Vanderzalm. By the way, big business isn't listening to you. They don't give a rats.
First of all, The comments by the Anonymous people appear to be confusing to say the least. They refer to statements and also quote a time fact. Why can those people be more exact. Are they in fear the Men In White Coats will deny them their one hour computer time. My Oak Bay girl friend would cut me off if she know I was playing with these mental giants. Now lets stand up and be men or women with a name and a town. Tommorrow, I will no long read anything written by MR. Anonymous. They are foolish people and do not deceive the right to comment.
Next, I see where someone refers to a Kennie. I find no comments by a Kennie. If you are refering to Ken why not state that. Your comments shows a person of low IQ. I will review the comments and recomment. I am most interest in who was the disgraced past Premeir. His letter was a real eye opener. Please treat this space as provided by Mr T with respect.Thank you.
Yes and as one wealthy Lady (maybe she is) said on her cell phone outside starbucks" This is too important poor people shouldn't be allowed to vote on the HSt"
Ken in Victoria with my head bowed down I admit I'm one of those Anonymous that you refer to. (please be patent this is only temporary )There is no way in hell I'm going to use my name while dealing with those other delusional Anonymous.
Kenneth when I return with my real name I will signal you with my code word please keep it confidential.The code word is _ _ _ _
hey ken. You are the kennie. Are you so old that you don't even know that you were punked. Punked means he was making fun of you. Typical old person. Becoming obsolete. The young will be replacing you soon enough.
how are all you going to feel when PST is increased along with GST? You won't be happy when Vanderzalm is tanning in arizona while you all pay more taxes.
Where does this ordinary man begin this comment. At the beginning, of course I returned to Bill's World because I still do not know which ex Leader was disgraced in the comments the person made mentioning Mr. Vander Zalm and his Mercedes Benz. I have owned such a vehicle. Model 300SLS that was worth 100 dollars but after an engine fire Mr. ICBC cut a cheque for $3000. I thank my Oak Bay Girlfriend for her skills in coning Mr. ICBC. Does that not show the liberals favourite the elite. If you do not believe me just quote your Email address and I will submit a copy of the sale tax form showing $100 and a year later the stub for $3000.My Oak bay girlfriend has a better idea. She states that I should turn the documents over to our MLA. I am so sorry I mentioned this factor. My only intention was regarding this disgraced ex. Now, I must stop commenting but will state if Mr. Vander Zalm has such a vehicle, more power to him. My next vehicle was a Jaguar.This comment is not relative but is the comment as to the vehicle driven by our hero Bill V. In closing I will state and please read this very carefully, Dumb people drive Smart Cars- Smart people drive MB or Jaguars. I am too upset to continue but I await the answer to my question.
Well Bill, you sure collect some negative folks.But the thousands who votes to get rid of the HST sure beat the ones who are bitching about other tax increases. If the present government didn't throw money around to projects that may or may not improve our lives there would be less taxes. Has anyone noticed the medical monthly payments are going up again? Anyone notice the increased charges for so many things. anyone notice that the guy who ran the government like his own private kingdom, left the province and got a well paid job somewhere else. Did anyone notice the massive pay scales paid to his so called advisers? I thought not.Lots of friends on the payroll mean more costs for us to cover.anyone notice how often the BC Liberals have lied to us and until the HST vote, they got away with it.
DPL, Kennie or ed deak or whatever name you use, your just another foolish old man. All politicians are crooks. That's a definition of politics. Too bad you can't do anything useful like volunteer your time. Oh wait, you probably have some conditions that prevent you from doing so. Don't worry, people will bitch at all the upcoming tax increases. Too bad there is no stopping it.
What kind of tax increases are coming our way????
pst
gst
property tax
tolls on bridges
carbon
fuel
medical service premiums
CPP
EI
WorksafeBC
environmental levies on goods
garbage
estate tax
probate
etc
All these tax increases are all coming your way. Sweet job BC!!!! Let's see you avoid these folks.
Anyone notice the increased charges for so many things. anyone notice that the guy who ran the government like his own private kingdom, left the province and got a well paid job somewhere else. Did anyone notice the massive pay scales paid to his so called advisers?
Anone notice the NDP raised taxes and had money spent on projects that did not return much to the citizens? No? What about a useless position given to Bob Williams called the Crown Corporations Secretariat or something like that?
No? Adscam perpetuated by the federal Liberals? The idiotic deal cooked up by Brian Baloney? Still a blank stare?
The Adrian Dix NDP will come up with something that people will hate alot.
Be here when it happens.
There should be more charges for every service including health. Too many times seniors with a minor cut or cold are heading to the doctor. What a waste of money and time. No wonder there is a lineup at the GP. Start charging $5-10 for each visit and you'll see lineups vanish. Nothing is fair in life so why should the medical system be.
there's nothing wrong with regressive taxes. if you can't afford it, do with out. isn't that what the old generation tried to teach us.
Barb in Sooke said...Friday, 2 September, 2011 6:02:00 PM PDT
if you can't afford it, do with out. isn't that what the old generation tried to teach us.
..........
That's correct, the problem being the present generation wants everything yesterday, all on the lay away plan.
When you suggest vote they think toke.
First of all, lets deal with the present and not the past. Lets deal with the Restaurant Industy especially the workers. Is it not Labour dDay weekend.
Mr. Mozooki suggests the removal of 7% on food tax to the Restauant industy.I can see where that idea is of great value.I have talked about this plan with both the owners and workers.With the help of the Federal NDP, the plan can work.Required is the politcal will. Mrs Clark claims to support families first. Therefore, lets support these people. Mr. Harper must know that BC resident rejected the HST and must allow the return of the PST. He will still collect his GST.I as many others remark that this is a win win situation. Mrs Clark was willing to rise business taxes to pay for the reduction in the HST to 10%.Now general business tax increase and applied to this plan would be in order. Did business cry about their increase in order to lower the HST rate.The ball is now in the hands of Mrs. Clark. Please pratise what you preach. Readers, please supply your comments. Thank you.
Ken in Victoria said...Saturday, 3 September, 2011 12:42:00 AM PDT
The ball is now in the hands of Mrs. Clark.
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That's what makes it so scary, our balls are in her hands.
Henri and kennie, finally someone is touching your balls without paying for it.
I certainly appreciate the comments of Henri. Short and sweet and to the point. I am some what long and boring.Question, Mrs Clark seems to put her right foot in her mouth on a regular bases. I wonder what else she puts in her mouth regularly? she walk and chew gum at the same time? Thank again, Mr. Henri.
Dear Mr. or Mrs Anonymous At September,3,20111 at1:16pm. I am sorry but I do not understand your comment. Thanks for posting that comment. It will be the pillow talk, this afternoon with my Oak Bay girlfriend.
hey ken, the person was pisstaking you. It meant you have no game and have to pay some to touch your balls. The joke was on you. I guess you are paying your CPP cheque to the oak bay girl. Hope she has all her shots.
To the Anonymous person at 12;12pm on Sept6,2011. There is no message on my computer screen just Anon and the date? Can you believe that.
I would like if someone could clarify for me...I have been hearing lately that the Feds would benefit thru increased revenues from the BC HST. Other than charging an administration fee to collect and remit the 7% HST back to BC is there another fee or % they would be receiving? Or was the anticipation of extra revenues from a (supposedly) hot BC economy that would generate more tax revenues (income and sales)? thanks,
Dear Chris you have asked a good question, one can answer only over the course of time will the Fed's GST income be determined. As you stated if the economy is hot then GST collected grows. Conversely, if the sales are decreased then their GST gross is lower.One example is restaurant meals. If the public is eating out less the GST is lower. However, the PST portion to the province is high because previously there was no tax. Finally let me state that on private sale of vehicles ICBC did not collect the GST. Therefore the Fed now have that revenue. It is 100% new and they benefit. Perhaps there are other incidents where the HST benefited Mr. Harper. Lets face facts, he never would have granted 1.6 billion if he was not going to benefit even more.The HST was only a winner for business and does Esso really need extra revenue or do the people need to spent less under the PST system. I hope more comments can be made on this subject. Thank you for your interest.
Dear Bill today is Friday. In one week I will meet every one's Hero, Mr VanDer Zalm. I have a car hat for him but The Order of BC would be more appropriate.
Mr. Tieleman, the suggestion on removing 77% tax on meals just before Christmas is a great idea. MP & MLA s can do It. Mr. Falcon can not as he has the brain of a bird. How is it possible for him to reinstate the elder PST after his expensive waste of tax $ trying to protect his little baby the HST. Will he resign before or after he lose his temper. Can he return to his day job as a clown at the Cloverdale Rodeo?
To close, Chris asked a very important question.Will there be more of an adult discussion today. I hope so.
Well, I left the last comment hoping there would be more adult comments. In addition, I kind of called out Mr. Falcon in suggesting a conflict of interest. I also suggested by the loss of little baby he would lose this temper. From what I have seen , he is the most likely gentleman to lose a temper. Lets face fact, Mr. Hanson looked stupid defend the baby HST. Did Mr. Hanson lose his temper? Almost, he came very close. If Mr. Hanson was really supporting his little baby where was he to defend that Hated Sales Tax. Out of Cabinet and disgraced.Enter hot tempered Mr. Four eyed falcon Man is he a loser. Why did he hire the Stick or sick men? I guess , he is annoying enough and brought in those characters to really bother the voters.Finally, Mr. Falcon should look in the mirror and see the failure his is. I am prepared to type his resignation. Will he be man enough to sign? Or just the rodeo clown he appears to be.
Dear Bill today is Friday. In one week I will meet every one's Hero, Mr VanDer Zalm.
If if this poster thinks VanderZalm is "everyone's hero", he needs to review VanderZalm's real time in political office. Let's begin with his "give a shovel" statement which all NDP supporters despised at the time, then walking out, and his ill fated run for Mayor of Vancouver.
Won handily in a provincial election, but soon after disgusted just about everyone in his party with his pressing his personal beliefs and attracting the Christian Movementarians to the party some of whom broke a few commandants, the very same they profess to adhere to.
Then there's the Property Transfer Tax and other great ideas he brought forward.
The anti-HST movement would not have gained much more beyond Bill's Facebook page and this blog if VanderZalm hadn't gotten into it the way he did.
Ken in Victoria. Your hero is vanderzalm??? You are mentally ill. The heroes are those who save lives like firemen and paramedics. All Politicians are like Vanderzalm. Simply the devil in a cheap suit from Value Village.
I have reviewed the comments and I am still in favour of the removal of the 7% tax on food services. As my travels continue, I note where both management and workers would benefit tremendously by such a move. Mrs. Clark needs to improve her image. This Christmas present would be welcomed by all.
In closing, I must state the visit by the Vander Zalms is so welcome by all Victorians. Note the term VICTOR in the name of the best town on earth. The three wise men were the victors. Let us give credit where credit is due. I will be standing in line to shake Bill's hand and meet his better three quarters, Lillian. My mother thinks she was born in the same country as she was. I must ask her that question. In addition, I will ask her what is it like to live with a true gentleman- Gentle William. I am excited Yes.
I will be standing in line to shake Bill's hand and meet his better three quarters, Lillian. My mother thinks she was born in the same country as she was. I must ask her that question. In addition, I will ask her what is it like to live with a true gentleman- Gentle William. I am excited Yes.
After readinfgthis, and remembering in vivid detail the antics of VanderZalm when he was Premier, and remembering the same thoughts Ken in Victoria wrote about VanderZalm as those of his devout supporters back when The Zalm was Premier, I think I'm gonna barf..
Hello Anonymous person at Sept 14.I note you are living in the past. Why not join the real time world.If you are eating at the liberal pig trough, you will have a constant case of throwing up.
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