Tuesday, September 13, 2011

BC Liberals "Chicken Little" act falls flat on claims that killing HST costs causing sky to fall

Sky's Not Falling Just Because the HST Fell

Ex-Premier Gordon Campbell and
Finance Minister Kevin Falcon

Time for the BC Liberal government to stop its Chicken Little squawking

Bill Tieleman's 24 hours/The Tyee column

Tuesday September 13, 2011 
By Bill Tieleman
"Oh go and tell the king that the sky is falling in/But it's not." 
- Radiohead, "2 + 2 = 5"

The B.C. government is playing Chicken Little with the Harmonized Sales Tax -- but the sky is not falling, just their credibility.

Where to start when there's so much misinformation?

First, if the HST was "revenue neutral" as the BC Liberals constantly claimed for 22 months, then the $1.6 billion one-time grant from the federal Conservative government would be the only major debt incurred.

Of course, we now know that the HST is not revenue neutral -- that was proven a complete falsehood by its own government-appointed "independent panel" when they discovered that B.C. would gain $820 million more a year in taxes from the HST.

To get up to Premier Christy Clark's claimed financial deficit of $2.8 billion you have to include the lost extra revenue that came from gouging taxpayers with the HST. Oops.

Remember, Prime Minister Stephen Harper didn't give the $1.6 billion because he loves B.C. -- it was a massive bribe that would have paid off in spades with increased federal revenues forevermore.

Federal governments don't just give away money to provinces for free -- there's always a price.

Tall, tall tales

This isn't a Jack and the Beanstalk deal either. The HST is an enormous tax shift taking $2 billion a year paid primarily by big business and putting it onto ordinary taxpayers.

That's why we're now paying an extra seven per cent more on restaurant food, haircuts, gym membership, domestic airline tickets, etc. Fortunately the deal just got cancelled after Fight HST, the group I helped form, forced a referendum vote through a citizens initiative petition.

Who would give up $2 billion a year forever to get $1.6 billion once? Other than the BC Liberals and big business, which financed a multi-million dollar ad campaign to try and rescue the HST, that is.

We gave governments a cash cow for a few beans that weren't magic.

And remember the old slogan -- "there's only one taxpayer." The federal money came partly from your own pocket.

Second, while $1.6 billion is a large sum, B.C.'s annual budget is $42 billion this year. That means over a five-year budget cycle, the federal HST grant amounts to under one per cent of total expenditures.

And, as the BC Liberals love to boast, the province's capital spending since they took office in 2001 has gone up by $45 billion -- that's $4.5 billion every single year, on average.

If Finance Minister Kevin Falcon can't find $1.6 billion without slashing public services he just doesn't want to. Of course, cutting capital spending would hurt the BC Liberal Party's big financial construction industry donors, like the Independent Contractors and Businesses Association.

Pecking away at $1.6 billion

Third, the repayment of the $1.6 billion should be offset by 40 per cent to account for the two years the HST will have been in place before its extinguished -- that's $640 million off the tab, please.

Fourth, while the BC Liberals have petulantly put the entire $1.6 billion grant back into the debt column for this year's budget, the reality is that they will try to negotiate flexible, longer-term repayments. And Harper doesn't want to be reminded come next federal election of how he stuck it to B.C. after a democratic referendum rejected the HST.

Fifth, threats to cut public services and freeze government workers wages to punish voters for ditching the HST are among the more laughable attempts at intimidation B.C. has yet seen.

Start with B.C.'s spending on health care -- the second lowest per capita in Canada at $5,355, ahead of only Quebec, below the national average of $5,614 and far behind Alberta's $6,266 and Manitoba's $6,249. Is Falcon's threat to make B.C. the lowest spending province on health care? That would go over big.

It's also not like B.C. was planning on giving wage increases to teachers, doctors, nurses, health care or government workers anyway.

And with B.C. unemployment continuing to rise under the HST -- figures from Statistics Canada show the province lost 12,500 full time jobs in August while gaining just 6,500 part time jobs, for a net 6,000 jobs lost -- it means financial pressure on the government was inevitable.

Kind of hard not to blame the HST but it was supposed to -- according to the Jack Mintz report -- create 113,000 new jobs over 10 years, or then just 24,400 according to the "independent panel" study.

What about those promises, Premier?

Most importantly, Clark and Falcon had desperately promised in the HST referendum to cut the tax to 10 per cent by 2014 -- a move that would have cost the government billions in lost revenue. Where was that money going to come from, growing the magic beans?

In fact, they continue to make outlandishly wrong-headed claims still, including a gross exaggeration of B.C.'s financial picture today.

As the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives rightly points out, last week government's scare tactic, estimating the cost to extinguish the HST and return to the GST and PST of $2.3 billion and a loss of $2.8 billion over three years, is ridiculous. The actual cost is $1.5 billion, while B.C.'s own contingency and forecast allowances for budget variations total $2.5 billion during that same time period.

Problem, meet solution.

What really went down

The reality of what happened with the HST is simple.

An absolutely panicked then-premier Gordon Campbell signed a deal with the federal devil in 2009 to help offset a deficit of $2.8 billion -- six times larger than the $495 million he swore it wasthrough the entire election.
Campbell and ex-finance minister Colin Hansen went "blood simple" -- the term used by detectives when even in the most meticulously planned murder, the killer makes mistakes and leaves clues when they actually see the victim's blood all over the floor.

Given that Campbell's BC Liberals had destroyed the then-NDP government over a deficit of only $350 million rather than a claimed $87 million surplus before the 1996 election, he knew the consequences of the books being out by $2.3 billion would be politically fatal.

What they couldn't see in their haste was that the HST was a non-starter in B.C. Every government to date that has introduced an HST -- federal and provincial -- has been defeated in the next election when angry voters could seek vengeance. Polls and protests showed how unpopular the HST was, but the government wouldn't admit it.

Campbell and Hansen arrogantly thought British Columbians would grumble and put up with yet another tax shift from corporations to individuals, even after 10 years of increasing the burden on families with moves like higher Medical Services Plan premiums.

They also counted on their broken promise to make B.C.'s unique Recall and Initiatives legislation more effective would render opposition futile. 

And they laughed at the idea of a former Social Credit premier -- Bill Vander Zalm -- leading the charge against them, not even bothering to register the BC Liberal Party or big business as opponents to the first-ever successful initiative petition.

Champagne and hellfire

Now the HST has become history.

So if the sky is truly falling because the HST has been voted out, it can come down on the new B.C. Place Roof -- built at the enormous cost of $563 million -- or the equivalent of 40 per cent of the HST grant.

Of course, all the worried business and BC Liberal worthies who are telling voters they were boneheads for rejecting the HST and that public services are doomed to hellfire and brimstone will still be drinking champagne at the grand opening this month and praising Campbell for building the outrageously expensive umbrella.

In British Columbia the sky isn't falling and we aren't doomed. But the HST is.



cherylb said...

We knew that a huge deficit was coming again this year. The HST just gave the Lieberals something to blame it on besides for their own incompetence!

Just raise the corporate tax already, will ya Falcon? That'll solve all your problems....

Kelly M said...

OMG Bill. You are soooo right on, and soooooooooooooo common sense. Watch your back. Politicos don't like guys like you. hehehehe

Anonymous said...

Another last gasp, Bill?

HST was defeated. Why waste pixels stating the same things over and over again?

How long is this rehash of glory going to go on?

Time to move on.

Time to endorse Topley and get something "new" in New Democratic.

SueMarie Crawford said...

Thank you once again Bill & the others for telling & EXPOSING the truth about this government, that did not learn a damn thing as they continue to lie.It is my hope that they are forever forced out by their own lack of integrity by bc citizens who I hope never forgets that they do not deserve to serve our province, now or ever. Shameful & deplorable display of so called leadership! Step down, we don't need liers we need true leaders!

Anonymous said...

Thank you once again Bill & the others for telling & EXPOSING the truth about this government, that did not learn a damn thing as they continue to lie.

Will be interesting to see Bill's responses once the NDP becomes government.

peter kelly said...

Thank you Bill for showing how much the BC Liberals will do to lie themselves into another term of office.

North Van's Grumps said...

You can add to that list of haircuts etc. now costing us an extra 7% ever since the HST came in, but also playgrounds and jungle gyms.

In 2001, then Education Minister Christy Clark eliminated the PST from playground equipment on schools, then left for family reason.

As the premier, she turned tail on her previous commitment to lessen the burden on families (first) by endorsing the HST which eliminated the exemption for playgrounds!

Bill Tieleman said...

Thanks to posters above for their kind comments on my column.

Of course, what would a column here be without a friendly visit from the PABsters? Always welcome of course - it adds spice to the blog - but lowers the average IQ a few points due to the low quality of post.

I'd be happy to leave the HST in the dustbin of history but when the current government keeps serving up misinformation in bulk, someone has to keep them honest. Yes, you're welcome.

As to what my response would be if the NDP were in government - I think you'll find that I've been critical of both the BC and federal NDP many times in the past - check the blog columns - when I believe they're in the wrong. That won't change.

Anonymous said...

Just raise the corporate tax already, will ya Falcon? That'll solve all your problems....

Better yet, start your own retail business and expand it, and pay out all taxes required, will ya cherylb?

Corporations are not all the big boys downtown Vancouver. There aren't alot of the awful evil Big Corporations in B.C. anyway.

The corporate hating NDP never dies, eh?

Ken in Victoria said...

Dear Mr. Tieteman:
Once again, you have exposed the liberals and their spin doctors as complete bumbling idiots. Their slant on the return of HST bribe money would shock a fifth grader.Why I see where Mrs. Clark and Heir Falcon remind this typist of Royalty wearing the Emperor's clothes. The nude truth will expose their weakness. I think Mrs Clark flip flops so much because she is fed statements by the puppet masters but her low IQ does not allow her to get the lies straight. As for Mr. Falcon, I can see him finally losing his temper. Just how believable could the defender of the baby HST be when given the task to reinstate the elder PST. He must resign as there is the conflict of interest problem. I am losing my temper just thinking of Hair Falcon.As such, I can not type any more. But will comment further after a time out.

Anonymous said...

Fifth, threats to cut public services and freeze government workers wages to punish voters for ditching the HST are among the more laughable attempts at intimidation B.C. has yet seen.

Really Tieleman. Public services must be cut and wages should be rollback. It's not laughable.

Less services, higher taxes, lower pay, lower benefits. That's what the greeks know well, AUSTERITY.

The public has no problem spending, they just have a problem paying for it. They just want someone else to pay for it and they get it for free. Maybe in your world Tieleman but not reality.

Anonymous said...

Falcon has admitted that the HST was a bad idea and the Liberals are accepting the blame. Now the Liberal party supporters, whom obviously pushed for the HST, should step up and pay for their parties mistake. If I make a bad investment or purchase I take the hit. I can't expect anyone else to pay for it. Liberals, do the right thing!

Anonymous said...

I like how whenever someone criticizes this blog or says something good about the HST they're automatically labeled "PABsters." Note to Bill and others: 45% of people voted to KEEP the tax. That's a pretty significant chunk. Maybe some of us actually saw through the BS and realized that it was a good thing for the province.

As for your assertion of being the one to "keep them honest," now there's some real irony!

cherylb said...

Hey anonymous 2:35:00 PM - you mean your buddies the Lieberals have no problem spending our money. I don't recall asking for things like the Owelympics, the new convention centre, roof, bridge, sea to sky highway, sale of BC Rail, devastation of BC Hydro, Pamela Martin, the bridesmaid, major corporate tax cuts, etc.

Isn't it funny how it's only those of us "peasants" who are expected to do without?

Let's start with the "elite" practising some austerity before we worry about the rest of us, shall we?

Anonymous said...

So now that this HST fight has been won, can we move on to fighting the Liberal spyware that will soon be installed on all our homes? It seems that the Liberals have TOLD BC Hydro they MUST install Smart Meters on every home in BC. We don't need smart meters and we don't want them.

Anonymous said...

Who is David Thomson and why don't you know his name or face?

"Meet The Richest Person From Every Major Country In The World"


Anonymous said...

Some other reasons maybe little Kevie could use to explain their bad economic management:

"I locked myself out of the house"
"I had a wardrobe malfunction"
"I'm just not ready yet"
"I was drugged"
"I have my own system"
"The sun was in my eyes"
"You can't handle the truth"
"It's Liberal genetics"
"I was just going with the flow of traffic"

or the old standby, "It's the NDP's fault!"

Anonymous said...

How about

"I wasn't breast-fed"

Ha ha ha ha

Anonymous said...

The Atlantic provinces received transition payments to cover an actual revenue shortfall that resulted from reducing the provincial component of the HST from 12 percent to 8 percent in NFLD and 11 percent to 8 percent in NS/NB. BC went into HST at 7 percent and taxed more goods and services so BC actually increased its revenues as you correctly stated. The $1.6 billion transition funds were used by BC to cover off a huge deficit.

Anonymous said...

Bill... most of us would loose our cool from the filthy PABs. I do. Your patience is amazing.

I often wish you would edit them out, but at least your blog will serve as a record of the PAB... and your probably employing more families than Crusty ever will.

That said - another great article posted over at the tyee:

"Canadian income gap widening faster than in US"


Ken in Victoria said...

I have read the comment after my comment. First comments seem to suggest support for the liberals than what followed were comments by people of intelligent indicating that our friendly liberals were a disgrace or a plain and simpler F up. Let me repeat my demand that Fall Con Man resign and Mrs Clark find the big house on Rockland and admit she is the captain of the ship of fools therefore an election is in order. In order to solve the destroying of this province by the baby HST and other liberal foolishness. Mrs. Clark, look in your magic mirror.may be a pretty face but you are a faceless good for nothing bumbling idiot. Do this province as favour and step aside before you are embarrassed further., I have a good job for you cleaning Mr. Dix office. Will you accept the promotion.I can continue to insult you further but there is not need as you insult the intellect of the gentle now turned angry voters. Did I lost my kool. Yes as so many other have.

Bill Tieleman said...

Thanks Ken - I always appreciate your comments.

BUT - I warn all posters that personal insults are not welcome here - I've had to not publish some comments that were over the line.

Everyone please stick to the issues please, understanding that political figures expect a little more heat than the individuals posting here. Nonetheless, name calling convinces now one of your arguments.

Anonymous said...

Vaughn Palmer wrote two columns on Falcon's HST budget update about the sky falling, but VP never once challenged any of the BC Liberal numbers - Oh how the mighty have fallen.

Quick question: How is it that the Sea-to-Sky highway and the new BC Place roof cost the same?

Anonymous said...

"Everyone please stick to the issues please, understanding that political figures expect a little more heat than the individuals posting here. Nonetheless, name calling convinces now one of your arguments."

More of your writings of late Bill, have apparently been written in haste (anger)(frustration). Is it because you're not sitting at a keyboard but your phone and text messaging...... ?.... which may go a long way to explain why you are having to not publish comments from others....for they are in the same fix as yourself.

Just not enough time.

Ruraidh said...

If anything is doing more to harm the investment climate in BC, it is not the demise of the HST but the existence of a caretaker government in Victoria for the next two years - without a real or perceived electoral mandate.

An unedifying spectacle.

Ken in Victoria said...

Today is the 14th day of September,as always a new day should be the first day of the rest of a person's life.One's life in this world must be to enhance the life of follow travelers on our wonderful little planet.
Let me start by apology to Mr. Teiteman, by stating that I have no intention to attack Mrs.Clark or Mr. Falcon personally. I would also sincerely apology to them if they feel personally offended.
I note that the CBC moderator removes comments. However, quoted is the handle of that disgraced commentator. It does not look good to see your name but comment removed.
Please, Bill, publish all person attacks against this typist. I enjoy the attention and as such they are not attacking My Three Suns. Yes, Chris and the two Bills are the bright lights in this province. With their assistance and the votes of the honest citizens, perhaps families can come in first and we all may live in the best place on this planet.
I will conclude that the Duke of Ft.St. John once stated " if I do not hear a good rumor about myself by 3 PM, I start one" Thank you for allowing me to type and thanks to all that read or have comments read to them. Be happy! I am.

Anonymous said...

Good post Bill.

As for anon 12:00.

We must revisit the HST and the corrupt sale of the BCR, over and over. Both the BCR sale and the HST, are election lies. And, we can also toss in the lie of, the small provincial deficit.

Campbell's long term in office is, because, he twice lied to be re-elected for two different elections. Campbell's legit time in office, would have only been one term. Campbell being Campbell, it was not beneath his dignity, to lie and cheat to win.

Campbell whined and sniveled over his DUI. He begged the BC people's forgiveness. He promptly turned around, and kicked those very BC citizens in the face, for doing so.

This is not Bill's last gasp, nor the BC peoples last gasp. We will neither, forget nor forgive, the Campbell/Clark BC Liberals for their treachery against, their own citizens.

Anonymous said...

Quick question: How is it that the Sea-to-Sky highway and the new BC Place roof cost the same?

They are different projects.

cherylb said...

I get a real kick out of people who attack, but are apparently afraid to put their name to it. It's fairly safe to spew vitriol anonymously. That's how we know they are PABsters. It wouldn't do to be publicly outed, now would it? It makes their employers look lower than they already are, lol....
C'mon guys. If you're going to write nasty personal attacks, at least have the guts to put your name to it.

Gawd said...

Cheryl. My name is gawd. Make you feel better? Why don't you get a real issue to complain about? Let's start with allowing two tier health system and cutting services to the elderly like yourself. We are all for it.

Anonymous said...

The BC Liberals, shifted the burden of the HST, onto our backs.

They are also shifting the blame of the lost HST, onto the BC people. The blame rightly goes on, Campbell, Hansen and Harper, and the BC ministers, who didn't lift a finger to stop Campbell's lunacy.

We were already taxed to death, we said, no to the HST. They forced it on us anyway.

This winter is going to be very grim. Another carbon tax hike. Food costs up 20%. Hydro going up. Winter utilities in the north, are really high. We will still have the HST burden. Gasoline still the highest cost.

Family's unable to survive until their next paydays are, using their credit cards to bridge the gap. House and car insurance, go on credit. School supplies have gone on credit, so have school clothes. X-mas will very likely go on credit as well. I saw a young mother buying groceries on her credit card.

I have e-mailed and asked, how can Christy's family's first, pay for all of this? There are no salary increases. The BC Liberals have refused to, take a salary roll back, until the recession is over.

The BC Liberals refuse to tax corporations and the elite. They don't have to pay, their fair share of taxes. Government employee's buy outs, are outrageous. Hahn's salary is obscene.

And, all of this is the BC citizens fault. We have to pay, the corporations, the elites, government officials, for stealing from us.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the great article Bill. What amazes me is that BC's mainstream media just takes the Liberals at their word. They just report what Falcon's spinmeister's cook up. Almost like investigative journalism is dead in this province.

cherylb said...

Hey Gawd - how about sending me your name and phone number so I can give you a call? Then you can say how you really feel face to face. I'm sure Bill would pass it on for you, wouldn't you Bill? C'mon bud. Be a man/woman. Quit hiding behind the internet. Chicken....

cherylb said...

Boy, these people hate to lose, don't they? If you can't think of anything intelligent to say; hurl personal insults. That's the mindset of these people. Hard to lose an argument with them.....

Anonymous said...

Gawd already knows who you are Cheryl. One of his few mistakes. No one wants your number.

leonardk said...

How is having the username "cherylb" any less anonymous than simply posting as "Anonymous"? We still have no idea who you are. Look at me, I'm "leonardk." Do you know me now?

Anonymous said...

cheryl, aren't you a hypocrite. You have a history of wasting people's time and money. Maybe you should run for politics.

Anonymous said...

The HST referendum was a wonderful win. We also won some democracy back too. Thanks to the HST crew.

For a senior on a fixed income, I can't stay in BC for the long haul. The cost of living is now, far too high for me.

I was rather hoping Christy would have called an election. I guess she didn't dare. I think Dix was ready to pounce, if Christy did call.

BC is just stagnating. Christy has done nothing about the IPP's, or anything else.

Big business should be paying the BC Liberals salary's. That's who they work for.

Ken in Victoria said...

After reading the most recent comments,please allow me to state the following. Lets use Cherylb as any example. Now every time, she comments the reader see her name. thus if she make more than one comment, the reader can look back at the other comments she has made. As for this gentle and very friendly person, the same applies. If you do not like my comments then do not read.
When this is applied to the anonymous persons, no one knows of the past comments. This is an important factor. Do you not want readers to review your past comment. Would that not be helpful. In addition, a city or an area of a city would be helpful. Maybe, Mr. Campbel is commenting from London. Thank you.
As for telephone number, I do not have one telephone!Cheryl if you are attending a meat & greet for HST (anti), I would be pleased to meet you. Of course, I wish to meet all.

ken in Victoria said...

cherylb is a wannabee politician.

istvan said...

well said ken ,cherylb is well respected.anons not so often.

Anonymous said...

I live in Richmond and was a bit surprised at the results of the YES vote, congratulations to the Richmond people for saying Yes to getting rid of the HST.
But to my point, if you take a drive on Knight Street starting at Westminster hwy going north, you see on both sides of the Hwy, where much of the small business offices reside or did reside, sign after sign of OFFICE SPACE FOR RENT/LEASE. .
It is the Liberal's legacy of destruction of business in this city.
So each time I hear the retoric coming from cluck cluck's mouth, the one about the NDP and their legacy of destruction of business in BC, I cringe. Never before have I seen the amount of FOR RENT/LEASE signs.
Although we having been going thru some historic world economic crises, this type of small business loss is due directly to the blantant and criminal actions of the corrupt and morally bankrupt liberal government.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr Tieleman,

Please refrain from making baseless claims and arguments derived from shameless emotional appeals. You have the rhetoric of a third grader still learning from his Alphabet soup. Making ad hominem attacks against the Liberals may be good fun when you do not have the restraint of social decency but they put you in the same vein as such irascible figures as Glenn Beck and Bill O'Riley. A reference to Chicken Little or Radiohead is as juvenile as it is irrelevent. Your vain attempts at humour serve naught but to nullify your already mediocre attempt at feigning credibility. You should enjoy the spoils of your complacent pontification while they last as anyone with half a brain cell can figure out you are nothing more than a hack-journalist with delusions of adequacy.

Bill Tieleman said...

Ouch - Anon 10:27 - please stop pummelling me with your tiny fists - someone may get hurt!

Not one scintilla of contradictory evidence? C'mon - put up an argument - give it a try. Prove me wrong somewhere.

cherylb said...

@ ken in victoria

Sorry I'm not always on the ball with these things but I try my best to make a reasoned argument.

So is Victoria beautiful? She sounds lovely.

Ken in Victoria said...

To Anonymous in Richmond at 10;02 Pm today. I appreciate your comment. It is well written and certainly outlines the feeling of many.On a personal note, when I travel to Vancouver, I use the Knight Street entrance. The last visit was January of this year but traffic is so heavy, I did not notice what you noticed. I am sure others can share a similar story.Today, I conducted business in the Keatings Cross Road Industrial area of Central Saanich. I noticed vacant rentals. In addition, on Monday, we were on Fort Street in the down town antique area of Victoria. Once again the was a definite supply of rental properties. I blame the baby HST and of course the liberals. Their spin artists can not possible believe what they state. If they stated the truth, they would be on the welfare rolls. As an solution, replacement must be made. For the good of this Province why is Mrs. Clark not calling an election. Is her ego bigger than that of the welfare of this Province. Can you see a revolt by the good and proper members of the liberal MLA. I can. Thus by revolting they just might get re elected by showing a desire to serve the public.I would consider voting for such as person. Thanks again for the comment. Will more follow. Now, I glanced at the comment that follows. Appears as an attack. I hope they continue to attack as their comments are a joke.

Ken in Victoria said...

Well there is some one named Ken in Victoria that stated at 6pm today, "Cherylb is a wannabee politician". That was not this Ken. Howe low can the snakes of this world try to obstruct the truth. The comment was so short regular reader will know it was not this long typing individual from the West Gorge area of Saanich.What is the saying flattery is a compliment.

Anonymous said...

Yes it is time for Christy Lite to either try to rule or get off the pot and get legitimate. Enough of this smile I'M Christy Lite drool over me. Fawn over Me like the MSM does.

Ken in Victoria said...

Dear Mr. Tieleman. This is Ken on the West Gorge. I made a BIG mistake in not reading all comments posted. Please forgive me. My excuse is that the comment from Richmond was so refreshing. I thought there was an attack posting but would rather just ignore an focus on the positive. When I saw the comment by small ken where as I use big Ken, I just LOL. Did that small ken really think the readers would be fooled. How foolish can some one be. Will he be attending the meet and greet for Mr. Vander Zalm. NO. He probably does not have $15 until welfare Wednesday.
As for the anonymous attacker at10;27pm today, I must state my hero answered that better than I could. He is not smarter than a fifth grader. What a third rate comment. I have stated before and will once again, thank you Bill. Ken

NeoDude said...

And again the selling of out-and-out lies.
There's the Bill Tieleman we know and despise.

"C'mon - put up an argument - give it a try. Prove me wrong somewhere." Allow me to pinch hit for Anon 10:27.

"Fortunately the deal just got cancelled after Fight HST, the group I helped form, forced a referendum vote through a citizens initiative petition."

Really? That vote never actually happened. If it had taken place within Recall and Initiative legislation then you know damn well there was no hope of success. The referendum we just had was "given" to us. And like you said "... governments don't just give ... -- there's always a price." We just don't know what that price is yet, except another 20 months (or more) of Liberal government.

"Where to start when there's so much misinformation?"

Obviously not with anything out of your lips. Not that you're a dead ringer for Pinocchio, far from it, it's simply a matter of being about as trustworthy as a Liberal. Your talent has always been the manipulation of the emotions of others, facts although possibly supportive being secondary in importance.

I was curious about another comment you left, if you wouldn't mind enlightening us. In reference to PABsters - "Always welcome of course ... but lowers the average IQ a few points"

Just wondering what is the average IQ of a PABster? or a non-PABster yet critical poster? or that of those who defend you whilst claiming the ability to spot the difference? What of the remaining few, have you ascertained their average IQ also? Obviously a rhetorical question unless you wished to admit to "making baseless claims".

I won't hold my breath waiting for it. "... someone has to keep them honest" ??? What are you smoking, to be calling the kettle black?

Ken in Victoria said...

Good morning to all, even the negative Anonymous persons. I hope your day goes well and if comments are to made they are constructive. Cherylb is the most constructive commentor of all.If the readers know what area she lived in, would they are feel even more comfortable in observing her writing.There would be more of an attachment.
Finally, I must repeat my desire to spent quality time with both Vander Zalm.I am boring to some people, therefore attack me. I defend myself by crying. Just like a baby. The supporters of the HST are even bigger cry babies. There should be a specially marked and marketed towel entitled " Baby HST Tear Catcher"LOL Kenneth on the Gorge the best place in pretty Bictoria.

DPL said...

King Gordo was pushed from office, and left a ton of problems for the citizens. He got an out of country job, and we get to pick up the mess. The HST was done in haste, and now Gordo's replacement is trying to convince us, we are all wrong and awful things will happen and its all our fault. Ms. Clark was stopped from calling an election because her handlers finally got it across to her, that BC Liberals would fall like flies if she had. The Anti HST group did us all a great service. We managed fairly well with the GST and PST and I see no reason why it can't be done again. If Falcon tells us one more time how things will have to be reduced, I suggest the present government stops throwing money into projects where their supporters make big dollars by being the selected contractors, or high paid, unqualified staff. What is the connection between a couple of hot line radio folks and reality?

cherylb said...

Bill, I did not leave that comment for Ken in Victoria yesterday at 10:50. How is it possible that someone else can comment with my name?

Thanks for the support to all the rest of you. I actually find it a compliment to be attacked like that. Means I'm doing something that pisses them off, so it must be right.....

Bill Tieleman said...

It now appears that there are two fake posters - a lower case "ken in Victoria" attempting to impersonate the genuine "Ken in Victoria" with a capital K - and a "cherylb" fake on Wednesday night impersonating the real cherylb - who I know.

Anyone can make up a name to post - including cheating by using other people's names - unless you have a Google account. That's why some posters' names are in BLUE - and can't be copied.

You don't have to identify yourself to me or the world but you do have to have a valid email to sign up for a Google account.

I'll try to be vigilant but can't tell when the names are identical for posters.

Very poor behaviour by these imposters - big surprise given their poor content!

Dave McPherson said...

I for one would be quite pleased if you editted out all the crap comments and left the articulate ones both pro and con.

so much scrolling for the reader to do...sigh!

cherylb the 3rd said...

"Bill, I did not leave that comment for Ken in Victoria yesterday at 10:50. How is it possible that someone else can comment with my name?"

Really cherylb? You can't figure out how someone else could have typed in the same letters as you in the "Name" field? Wow, and Bill was commenting earlier on the IQ of the people who are AGAINST him... how ironic!

The impersonator does make a good point about the hypocritical nature of pretending to be non-anonymous simply by typing some characters into an empty "Name" box.

Anonymous said...

so much scrolling for the reader to do...sigh!

Its your choice and yours alone.

No one is asking you to scroll more than you want to.

cherylb said...

Hey! Looks like Gordo is afraid to come home and accept his prize.


Guess since he's not Premier anymore he won't have his bodyguards to keep the rabble away from him. Coward!

Tim Smyth said...

Brian Tobin in Newfoundland was re-elected in Newfoundland in 1999 after introducing as were the Nova Scotia Liberals under Russell Maclellan albeit to only a minority government plus recently polls in Ontario aren't looking for Tim Hudak and the PC's. Bill, you are totally wrong on this.

cherylb said...

Bill, sorry to inconvenience you, I'm sure you have more important things to do at this hour than moderate a forum full of immature posters BUT the cherylb at 3:23 pm isn't me! Why are so many people trying to impersonate me?

Richard from Bangkok said...

"Its your choice and yours alone.

No one is asking you to scroll more than you want to."

Exactly! I can agree with doing away with anonymity (which is why I added my location), but this is a blog that is the epitome of the ideal of freedom, be it of religion, of information, or of choice.

Jordan Hsieh said...

Really guys,
I think this has gone too far.
Mr. Bill has been right all along.

More importantly, too many people are
eager to flame. It's dumb. Stop it.

wow said...

was that acrostic intentional?

Ken in Victoria said...

Well what a day for comments.The Moderator is overworked. As such I will be a brief Ken.If Mr. Campbell is not coming to Rockland on October, the 4th. Is he insulting The Queen's representative? For God , country and the Queen is a saying. How can Mr. Campbell deny the Crown the right to crown him. At the winter carnival, his ugly kisser was a constant reminder to the fact he considered himself to be the Emperor. He bathed in the glory. Is he suggesting that he is unworthy of the reward. He is truly a joke. As such' Mr. Campbell resign. Your nmew job can be light bulb changer at the Legistate. It does not take a bright light to replace burnt out bulbs. Does he see the light or is he still in the dark. The liberal have been ten years of dark ages.

Bill Tieleman said...

Okay - there are now more comments here than on the might Tyee! I think Jordan is right - it's kinda over. I'll still post comments but think first, hit send second.

Bill Tieleman said...

I want to correct the record - with thanks to Tim Smyth's comment on this blog. I was incorrect and for some time - I can't remember where I first heard that every government to introduce an HST in Canada was defeated but clearly that is inaccurate in the case of Newfoundland and arguably Nova Scotia.

I apologize for the error and won't repeat it - it's unfortunate that I didn't find out till now. My research abilities were clearly, err, taxed.

That said, most governments - but not all - that brought in an HST were defeated in the subsequent election.

Ken in Victoria said...

Today is Friday and as such the start of my for day weekend.Nevertheless, I wish to make my final comment.
Both Jordan and Bill and this writer are in consentence that all comments have been maid. I certainly enjoyed both reading and commenting.As an aside, I note on TV (12) (Cfax) there is reference to the liberals attacking the conservatives. I has not seen the advertisement yet. However, I can see Mr. Tieleman preparing a comment. The supports of the NDP are going to enjoy the cat and dog fight between these well liked parties.
Sorry, I think I am off base. To conclude,I will end by stating I always enjoy my weekends as I do nothing, say nothing, go nowhere and see no one.

Gaylord Perry said...

It has been very enjoyable following your blog (and the ensuing comments) these last few days. Though I do not agree with all your points Bill, I must tip my hat to you for your actions against the illegal implementation of the HST. If nothing else, the Liberals need to understand the importance of a transparent platform. No more surprises please Liberals. We got Bill on our side to call you out. Salut!

Anonymous said...

Wasn't illegal. They way it was implemented was very stupid, but hardly illegal.

Jordan Hsieh said...

Generally, I would say that you are
On the mark with all this Bill.

For the record I didn't think that
Under any circumstance should the
Creative nature of any said posts
Kreate the demise of discourse.

Yes, Bill has the upperhand in this
Overly unnecessary argument but
Unless the level of formality is
Resolved, you should consider
Stopping these juveniles by
Eminently locking the blog posts.
Likely, though these people will
Force you to just laugh at them.

Kelly L said...

Right on Bill! Im a big fan of you're work.

Ken in Victoria said...

If one is to consider the ramifications of such rash action as the dissolution of a referendum from which radical points of view are made, let's laugh at him.

Anonymous said...

Which base did you get to, Ken?

rupin said...

Fink Mr. Bull Tieleman has
Ultra good points
Concerning the
Klump of mess tat is the HST

Never has I seen
Dis awesome of a
Political ana lyst

Anonymous said...

OK looks like some of the PAB have resorted to cursing... (read the first letters down the left hand side)

That said congrats Bill this may be the 74th comment!

Ken in Victoria said...

Mr. Tieleman. you are a magnet for weird, wonderful but not necessary wise comments. I have no idea what they are talking about. Nor do I care.
As mentioned Mr.and Mrs Vander Zalm were in Victoria to meet and greet the fans of the PST. I can report that Bill was very well received by all. It was a proud moment to witness the genuine support to the accomplishments the many that rallied against the baby HST. In my opinion, the highlight was when Mr Vander Zalm stated the return to the land of the elder PST should be completed in a shorter time period than quoted by the establishment.
On a personal, note I did not talk to Bill as I let his many fans enjoy his company. I like being an anonymous person. However, I give the car hat to Mrs Vander Zalm plus a golf ball. In addition, I was pleased to park my $500 dollar Buick next to their black car. I have pictures.I trust sharing this story will be beneficial to all that count. Sincerely Ken.

Anonymous said...

Is it possibly time for another story investigating the pab?

I would like to know their salaries and benefits... Considering this story and its comments I would be particularly interested in their overtime wage.

cherylb said...

Impressive Rupin! Wow, we can all see how much more brilliant you are than the rest of us! :)

cherylb said...

GEE! Would the anon who keeps impersonating me (the one at 11:14) just give it a rest? It's bad enough that people are swearing on this blog but come on at least leave me out of your stupid game. I came here to talk about the HST, not to get into these stupid fights.

Anonymous said...

I like how all of Bill's supporters simply choose to label all those who oppose his views as "PABsters." I guess with their intelligence level it's the best they could do; resorting to ad hominem attacks is a lot easier than putting up a legit argument.

Keep this in mind guys: 45% of BC voted in favour of keeping the HST. Does this mean that 45% of the BC population are PABsters, because damn, now that would be excessive government spending.

P.S. in before someone tries to convince me that 45% of BC = PABsters/businesses

Ken in Victoria said...

This is Ken, agent # 5555 on the Gorge in Victoria. I see another Ken has commented. As well, another cherlb has commented. Who is fooling who.
Now, my comment is what is the pab? I have seen reference to that but I do not know what it is!I do not care what it is.

Anonymous said...

Lol Ken I know the person who lives at that address. You're only pretending that's your address.

Anonymous said...

PABscum wrote:

"I like how all of Bill's supporters simply choose to label all those who oppose his views as "PABsters.""

...I don't - but I do suspect the spectacularly stupid / liars...

PABscum wrote:
"Keep this in mind guys: 45% of BC voted in favour of keeping the HST."

This is a lie. Please see:


Read it slowly and carefully. One key point for you from the article:

"we don't get 100% turnout - and we know now that it's about half that at 52"

In other words about 52% of British Columbians participated in the HST vote... I'll let you puzzle the rest out (but keep in mind more BCers voted to kill the HST than voted BC Lib).

All that said: I would rather believe you were being paid for the lies / stupidity rather than believe you were that corrupt or stupid.

Anonymous said...

In other words about 52% of British Columbians participated in the HST vote... I'll let you puzzle the rest out (but keep in mind more BCers voted to kill the HST than voted BC Lib).

Then by your imagination only half those once again actually supportered the HST:

52% of Britsh Columbians particpated in the HST vote.

So therefore half of those, i.e. about 55% voted in favour.

It is 55% of those who participated in the voting, not "half of British Columbians" who voted in favour of the referendum. Big difference.

The same argument that is always used during elections.

Anonymous said...

"PABscum wrote..."

HAHAHHAHAHAHA, starting a statement with namecalling, real mature.

But by the same logic, if only 52% of people in BC voted, that means only 55% of the 52% voted in favour of extinguishing the HST.

If you can't do the math, it means that only 28.6% of people voted in favour of extinguishing the HST.


Anonymous said...

"All that said: I would rather believe you were being paid for the lies / stupidity rather than believe you were that corrupt or stupid."

Translation: "I can't believe somebody has a different opinion than me, so I'm just gonna call him corrupt and stupid and concoct a batshit conspiracy theory that only belongs in movies."

Do you believe the moon landing was faked too?

Anonymous said...

Do you believe the moon landing was faked too

and that the NDP actually cares about poor people and will actually eliminate poverty?

and that the BC Teachers Federation actually cares about quality education for our kids?

Anonymous said...


If that silly statement is what you beleive to be true to you, then get out of BC while you still can.

Labrador is needing more residents.

Anonymous said...


If that silly statement is what you beleive to be true to you, then get out of BC while you still can."

So you seem to realize how crazy the notion of BC being 70% "PABsters" is.

So why is it that you call every other person a "PABster"?

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...

Do you believe the moon landing was faked too

and that the NDP actually cares about poor people and will actually eliminate poverty?

and that the BC Teachers Federation actually cares about quality education for our kids?"

Wait wait wait, so are you saying you DO believe that the moon landing was faked?

Or are you saying that the other two statements that you made are just as preposterous as the faked moon landing theory? If so, I'd agree with you by the way.

Anonymous said...

hmm... PABscum, you have not convinced us... Are you stupid and or corrupt:


here's another one about the PABscum you'll probably be able to relate to:

"Dumb, small, mean - and incompetent"


Any-who, you are clearly upset so I'll lay off, but just in case you want to learn more about the PABscum look here:


or just look in the mirror.

an observer said...

Did you just call somebody a "PABscum" and then link him to articles about the PAB?

What does that accomplish?

Anonymous said...

He can't actually respond to my question, so he just decided to distract us all with fancy links.

I guess I'm supposed to respond with something like:

"You're an NDPscum, here's a website if you wanted to learn more about the NDP: http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/

or just look in the mirror."

Gaylord Perry said...

Evening folks, trolls, and flamers. By the way, I prefer to be addressed as Chris as that is the nickname my friends give me. Anyway without further ado, I'd like to address several issues with the discourse of this forum.

1) Ad hominem attacks are do NOT prove a point. Well argued, rational arguments with proof are what supply a good argument. I shouldn't have to tell either side this; "PABster" or not.

2) On the subject of the term PABster, please do not discredit one's point of view on an issue simply because of his/her political leanings. Regardless of income and alleged classifications of class, to use an ideological perspective an insult is akin to McCarthyism.

3) Also, those acrostics -- though irrelevant -- are bloody funny.

Ken in Victoria said...

Today is Tuesday or my Monday. Therefore, I be be belief as I have tooo much to do in only three days' A eight day week would be helpful.
Lets begin by stating there have been 94 comments by ? # of com mentors. This column has been like a Red Flag placed in a flock of bulls. It has certainly drawn the BS.
Mr. Tieleman's final statement was the HST to be no more. Lets remove certain parts of the baby one step at a time. Lets start with the removal of HST on meals as point off sale rebate. Then move on the to other parts, whereby in due course the will be no more.
Are there any thoughts out there in Billy's World?

Anonymous said...

Looking back on the posts it appears as though the PABscum were clearly told they were corrupt and or stupid based on claims of first 45% of BC supporting the HST and later 70%...

This not partisan. Stupidity and corruption has been demonstrated consistently and repeatedly here by the PABscum. You are not earning your training wage.

Dave McPherson said...


for those that think it is not the HST it is how they did it.

my comment is

It is indeed the HST and it is how they are still doing it!

rupin said...

I shall summarize every point tat is Made.

Not good and corrupt

Anonymous said...

"Looking back on the posts it appears as though the PABscum were clearly told they were corrupt and or stupid based on claims of first 45% of BC supporting the HST and later 70%..."

hahaha what?

Anonymous said...


Here is to Bill almost single-handedly keeping the PABscum employed!

Anonymous said...

Not good and corrupt

Applies to the PABsters when the NDP becomes goverment too??

Ken in Victoria said...

Yesterday, I was listening to the morning comment on CFAX by Mr Mikey Campbell. Once again, he offered his opinion as to the HST. A few days earlier, I EMail him and stated very simply that he can comment all he wants on the subject of the HST. However, as there is a relationship to the father of baby HST, his brother, he should state that relationship. The listeners can then determine if his comment is to support the HST or the support his brother or both.
The comment yesterday when too far as he attacked certain and even all members that support the elder PST. He demanded that those supporters pay the so called tax shortage created by the will of the people to kill the little baby tax policy of his brother and Mr. Hanson.
July 1st was the first birthday for the HST and it was the sick men rejoicing. Why did the original daddys not give a shout out.
The bottom line in this comment is that I requested Mikey to apologize and when commenting on the HST disclose that he is not at arms length on the subject. In addition, I asked him straight goods, is the Campbell family proud of Mr. Gordon Campbell. Will Mr. Michael Campbell have the class to respond? In my opinion, he is all talk but no action.

Ken in Victoria said...

This comment will be the 103th statement on the HST subject. May I offer a very brief comment?
The $1,600,000,000 was a political bribe. Mr. Campell 's appointment to London was quite possibly part of that bribe. Where is a Wiki leaks documents to prove this factor. As such, under the forfeit of profit act, the money does not have to be returned. Let Mr. Harper take the matter to court. His success rate at such a court is that of failure. Does harper also mean a loser. Yes and the 60% voting against the Conservatives will be the biggest losers.
Next, consideration must be given to extra revenue to the Federal Bank. Private motor vehicle transfers is one example. Are there others?
Point of sale rebates are necessary to piece meal the dismantling of the Hated Sales Tax.Please remember that the Libs offered to lower HST rate by increasing business taxes. Therefore they must be willing to do the same thing for the PST.