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| Imprisoned artist & architect Ai Weiwei |
Canada to double trade with China, whose government imprisons artist Ai Weiwei and Nobel winner Liu Xiaobo
Tuesday June 7, 2011
By Bill Tieleman
"I believe that no matter what happens, nothing can prevent the historical process by which society demands freedom and democracy."
- Ai Weiwei, imprisoned Chinese artist and architect
UPDATE JUNE 24 - Good news - Ai Weiwei has been freed from prison! But he is also under a severe gag order from Chinese authorities not to talk about his detention. See: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/06/23/ai-weiwei-gag-order.html
China's best-known artist and architect -- Ai Weiwei -- has been jailed since April 3 for speaking out against that country's dictatorship.
The first Chinese national to win the Nobel Peace Prize -- Liu Xiaobo -- is also in jail, serving an 11-year sentence for "inciting subversion of state power."
On June 4 in Hong Kong, an estimated 150,000 people rallied to demand human rights in China and mark the anniversary of the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre of protestors by the army.
Meanwhile Canada plans to double our $30 billion a year trade with this viciously authoritarian government by 2015.
That means these two extraordinarily brave men are good for democracy but bad for business, especially for corporations with huge financial investments in China.
What landed Ai in prison
Ai predicted his eventual jailing in May 2009.
He knew that criticizing the 2008 Beijing Olympics -- despite being consulting architect to the fabulous Bird's Nest stadium -- and compiling online lists of the names of children killed in the May 2008 Szechuan earthquake when their poorly built schools collapsed -- would doom his freedom.
Before his popular blog was erased from the Internet and his Twitter account with 70,000 followers was silenced, Ai wrote: "Reject cynicism, reject cooperation, reject fear... There is nothing to discuss... I won't cooperate. If you must, come bring your instruments of torture with you."
Now Ai languishes in jail, accused of "tax evasion" but clearly being punished for statements like this, written just before the Olympics began: "A society lacking in democracy is incapable of orchestrating true joy for its people."
Many artists have rallied to Ai's cause and those of other pro-democracy activists -- but the art world establishment has been almost as silent as the controlled Chinese media.
That's because China controls access to its vast artistic collections and the funding to permit exhibits to travel to western nations.
VAG curator stands up for Ai
The Vancouver Art Gallery's chief curator Daina Augaitis deserves praise for immediately calling for Ai's release from jail.
"It's terrible. We need to speak out about it. We need to demand his release -- as the French and German governments have already done," said Augaitis, who had previously visited Ai in his studio along with VAG director Kathleen Bartels in 2010.
Unfortunately, of all major American galleries, only San Diego's Museum of Contemporary Art has officially protested Ai's detention.
But several continue with plans to showcase art exhibits organized in conjunction with the Chinese government, including the Milwaukee Art Museum and the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts.
Liu Xiaobo's activism
The case of Liu Xiaobo is equally, if not more disturbing.
Liu joined student demonstrations in Tiananmen Square in 1989 and has been a pro-democracy activist ever since, despite losing his job as a teacher and being repeatedly jailed.
Liu's commitment to achieving democracy and protection of human rights through non-violent protest earned him the Nobel Prize last October.
To his credit, Prime Minister Stephen Harper publicly congratulated Liu on his Nobel win -- but regrettably Harper has yet to protest Ai's jailing.
U.S. President Barack Obama called for Liu's release in a powerful statement describing him as "eloquent and courageous."
But China's response was classic -- there was no mention of international condemnation of Liu's imprisonment in official media.
But China did describe Liu as a "criminal" and his being awarded the Nobel Prize "an obscenity."
Here in Canada, a Parliamentary page can stage a silent protest against Harper's government on the floor of the Senate without fear of jailing, torture or death.
Voters in British Columbia will democratically decide in a binding referendum if the Harmonized Sales Tax should be repealed, overriding an arbitrary government decision.
The contrast couldn't be sharper.
So at a time when Canadian and other countries rightly rally support for pro-democracy movements in Egypt and Libya, isn't it also appropriate to demand freedom for Liu and Ai and more support for democracy in China?
Or is it just business as usual?
A disturbing footnote: The last time I raised the issue of democracy in China in 2008 I received email death threats that were investigated by Vancouver Police. They originated in China, which refuses to cooperate with investigations by foreign police.
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38 comments:
It is great to see an article like this on Newspaper 24 today. China's deceptive economic growth has made many of us around the globe blind to the oppressed within simply because they said things they believe in. It will come to an end someday, and then we can really tell what values stand through centuries and what claims only survive a short period of time in history.
Bill you should do an article on are great Democratic friends in the USA that have jailed Bradley Manning who is accused of leaking documents to Wikileaks and has been placed in solitary confinement, where he has been held for more than a year waiting a military trial. The land of the free where you die at the foot steps of a hospital if you can't afford health care. They are as just as bad as China.
Harper works very closely with China. Canada and the U.S. send factories to China, because of the cheap labor, child labor is even more cheap. Chinese working in an apple factory, have to sign a pledge, not to commit suicide. The working conditions are that bad. Communism, Campbell and Harper fully support.
Harper has pretty much got rid of democracy in Canada. He sees nothing wrong in oppression, he practices it himself.
Do people not remember, the CSIS found ties with China, a little too tight among, some Canadian politicians?
Both Harper and Campbell have non stop love-ins with China. Of course, Harper will say nothing to China, about democracy. If it were Iran, Russia or Pakistan, Harper would have been all over them. He sees all of that lovely money from China, filling his coffers.
I can;t agree with the logic of the comments. If you criticize A, they say B is as bad (let's assume it is true for now). So what? Does this justifies what A has done wrong?
"If you are against Israel, you are a terrorist."
No you're not. If you threaten others phyiscally, or threaten phyiscal violence against a sovereign nation and its people and it can be proven, THEN you're a terrorist. You can walk down Georgia street carrying a sign saying "I HATE Israel" and no one will arrest you.
"If you voice your opinions in the Senate, you are fired"
No you won't. The page did break the rules while she was employed, just as a person cannot disrupt an NDP Provincial Council Meeting stating opposition to Bill VanderZalm if that person was employed by the NDP as a desk clerk or organizer.
" The USA has just as many political dissidents as China, except they are put on black lists and can't find jobs."
Yes they can, if they want to. They won't be employed by Merrill Lynch, but Alberton's in Mount Vernon or Fred Meyer in Oak Harbor are probably looking for people.
Many countries are like this, but China is singled out because it is "Communist."
If you like the People's Republic there, go and live within it.
There's also the socialist paradise of Cuba.
Take your pick. We'll buy you the fare on the Canada Line to the airport.
Well, Wikileaks has said, the N.A.U. will be here shortly. I have no idea, how this will affect the, everyday people from, Canada, the U.S. and Mexico?
The American people are dead set against the merge of the three country's. For some reason, they sure don't have any use for Harper. They fear, being overrun by Mexicans.
We have been hearing of Global Governance and the N.A.U. for quite some years. Harper did give a speech on, Global Governance, how he thought, that was a necessity.
There seems to be a lot of angry people, in many angry country's. I keep waiting for the anger of Canadians to erupt. The Americans think we are wusses. They intend to fight the N.A.U. to the nth degree.
To anon at 10:14 am: I'm not defending China. I used to live there and know first hand the internet censorship and biased reporting there. That's not to say there isn't censorship and biased organizations anywhere else, right? Didn't G.W. Bush say to his opponents, "If you are not with us, you are with the terrorists?" There are many cases of profs and teachers being "dismissed" because of their opinions. This creates a climate of needless fear. WILLIAM is correct about Manning being a counterpart to Ai Weiwei. I want a true democracy where reporting is objective, and the people derive opinions from information presented (not from biased pundits like Rex Murphy). I want a true democracy where all points of view bloom like a thousand flowers.
Okay this is so off topic but I have been so angry through all of the Stanley Cup playoffs about the amount of money the BC Govt and crown corporations are spending on commercials and as sponsors both at the rink and on TV - BC Ferries, BC Hydro, BCLC, Tourism BC, the pro-HST crap. I'd like someone to tally those numbers up. This is a disgraceful waste of our hard-earned tax money being used to advertise Govt crap to us. Grrrrr.
"To anon at 10:14 am: I'm not defending China. I used to live there and know first hand the internet censorship and biased reporting there. That's not to say there isn't censorship and biased organizations anywhere else, right? "
Not to the same degree as there is in China, in many Western countries.
Didn't G.W. Bush say to his opponents, "If you are not with us, you are with the terrorists?"
He was an idiot president. Same guy that proudly said "Mission Accomplished" aboard an aircraft carrier, when said mission was far from being completed (it still isn't).
There are many cases of profs and teachers being "dismissed" because of their opinions. This creates a climate of needless fear. WILLIAM is correct about Manning being a counterpart to Ai Weiwei. I want a true democracy where reporting is objective, and the people derive opinions from information presented (not from biased pundits like Rex Murphy). I want a true democracy where all points of view bloom like a thousand flowers.
Welcome to Canada. All points of view are out there. Its up to you to know where to look. It exists here in this blog despite many thinking Bill is a left wing nutcase, it's out there with Alex Tsakumis despite many thinking Alex is a right wing nutcase.
Don;t like Rex Murphy, but do catch Power Play when I can. The decision is mine, as it is yours.
This is a disgraceful waste of our hard-earned tax money being used to advertise Govt crap to us. Grrrrr.
Note to Adrian Dix:. Once becoming Premier, absolutely no public money used in advertising government. None. Includes Crown Corporations such as ICBC, BC Hydro, etc. etc.
No TV ads, no board advertising at Rogers Arena, no printed ads sent by mail. Nothing.
"There seems to be a lot of angry people, in many angry country's. I keep waiting for the anger of Canadians to erupt."
That's what is so terrific about having people like Harper in power. They can't help but tick people off with their repressive policies. We used to have someone equally as wonderful and Conservative in charge here in BC. Sadly Gordon Campbell was supplanted in order to bring in the soft sell for HST from Christy Clark.
Personally, I'm hoping the anger aimed at both governments kicks into a new level after the HST referendum fails next month. When will people learn to stop asking for justice?
"That's what is so terrific about having people like Harper in power. They can't help but tick people off with their repressive policies."
and the NDP and federal Liberals did not at any time have repressive policies??
"We used to have someone equally as wonderful and Conservative in charge here in BC."
Could have been taken out in 2005 and 2009.
Sadly Gordon Campbell was supplanted in order to bring in the soft sell for HST from Christy Clark.
Personally, I'm hoping the anger aimed at both governments kicks into a new level after the HST referendum fails next month. When will people learn to stop asking for justice?
When will people learn to accept election outcomes, even though they didn't for the government that got in??
Did the same line of thinking occur when the NDP returned to power in 1996? When the federal Liberals returned to power?
When Ontario elected Bob Rae and his NDP government? Nova Scotia's NDP??
Anon 1:09, you ask many good questions
"and the NDP and federal Liberals did not at any time have repressive policies??"
Yes
"Did the same line of thinking occur when the NDP returned to power in 1996?"
Yes
"When the federal Liberals returned to power?"
Yes
"When Ontario elected Bob Rae and his NDP government?"
Yes
"Nova Scotia's NDP??"
Yes
And finally, "When will people learn to accept election outcomes, even though they didn't for the government that got in??"
(I assume the word "vote" is meant to be in there somewhere)
Let's hope we never become so complacent. As is often attributed to Thomas Jefferson - The price of liberty is eternal vigilance - not voyeurism. Anyone who merely watches isn't protecting their liberty or that of others. Acceptance is for those who prefer to remain enslaved.
That said, I would accept a just government, one where all are reasonably able to pursue an equitable distribution of the resources nature provides us. But I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to be provided to us. The fight continues.
I'm not in favour of NED-like involvement in China - National Endowment for Democracy that is.
That said, I would accept a just government, one where all are reasonably able to pursue an equitable distribution of the resources nature provides us. But I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to be provided to us. The fight continues.
If a person is NDP, the fight ALWAYS continues, as it has since 1973.
"Police breaking bones, and terrorizing citizens, who were protesting. Beating the hell out of innocent bystanders.
Oh phuleeze. What about those anarchists dressed in black and smashing store front windows, overturning boxes, and blocking streets?? THey wear black and cover their faces. If they had any credibility they would be peaceful and show their faces and do nothing except hold a sign and yell alot.
Did they ever compensate the store owners for damage done?
Nope. Be lucky they were able to protest like that in Canada. In China, they would have been shot.
Police dressed in black, with their faces covered, trying to incite another peaceful protest. When asked to remove their covered faces.... As soon as they were accused of being police, they left. Typical in a Communist country. Harper was responsible for all of it.
Yep. The anarchists do the same thing (cover faces, and cause damage to store fronts and disrupt traffic and other people, for what? Their interpretation of democracy??
Simple solution. If people want to protest, they can, but do not disrupt the rights of others who don't care for the protestors' position, and leave public and private property alone, unless you're prepared to pay out compensation.
Obviously I could be wrong but it appears that Anon 10:15 and 11:51 are the same person, also masked in anonymity, so I'll reply under that assumption.
"Simple solution. If people want to protest, they can, but do not disrupt the rights of others who don't care for the protestors' position, and leave public and private property alone, unless you're prepared to pay out compensation."
That is an argument of someone who wishes that the status quo be maintained. You have something to protect and are willing to pay to have that security provided. In other words you are a capitalist, possibly even Conservative, the worst kind in our country.
On the other hand: "If a person is NDP, the fight ALWAYS continues, as it has since 1973."
You also seem to be proud of the "work" that the NDP has done. You make the same mistake that Tieleman does, dividing the political map of Canada into only 2 major factions, Conservative and NDP. (In BC the Conservatives are still manifesting their power from within the Liberal party)
For brevity I'll avoid the federal situation but it's essentially the same idea just like every province. The problem is there is a third faction, bigger than either of them. The "anarchists" if you like, though they are a small but vocal percentage, represent those who support neither the business Conservatives nor the union NDP. The NDP is much closer to Conservative than Anarchist so please don't BS me about which side of a "fight" you are on. If you don't want to join the true fight against fascism, that's your choice. Just remember that it's that kind of thinking which causes the NDP and others like you to be considered friends of the state, enemies of the people.
And just to make my point crystal clear as you seem to have trouble grasping it, in anticipation (and another assumption) of a new HST column from our genial host, I have prepared a special note for Bill. I hope you will take the time to read it tomorrow.
"That is an argument of someone who wishes that the status quo be maintained. You have something to protect and are willing to pay to have that security provided. In other words you are a capitalist, possibly even Conservative, the worst kind in our country."
Right about being capitalist, but so what? Lots of people are, and no not the worst in the country.
You can make changes without having to bash in windows of stores or block public roads.
On the other hand: "If a person is NDP, the fight ALWAYS continues, as it has since 1973."
You also seem to be proud of the "work" that the NDP has done. You make the same mistake that Tieleman does, dividing the political map of Canada into only 2 major factions, Conservative and NDP. (In BC the Conservatives are still manifesting their power from within the Liberal party)
The BC Conservatives are a joke, a collection of right wing nuts.
For brevity I'll avoid the federal situation but it's essentially the same idea just like every province. The problem is there is a third faction, bigger than either of them. The "anarchists" if you like, though they are a small but vocal percentage, represent those who support neither the business Conservatives nor the union NDP. The NDP is much closer to Conservative than Anarchist so please don't BS me about which side of a "fight" you are on. If you don't want to join the true fight against fascism, that's your choice.
So by that we gather you were part of the Nazi (fascist) resistance or other fasicst governments? I doubt that.
"Just remember that it's that kind of thinking which causes the NDP and others like you to be considered friends of the state, enemies of the people.
and you represent the entire populace, correct??
Some thoughts from Anon (now) 10:07
Right about being capitalist, but so what? Lots of people are, and no not the worst in the country.
You can make changes without having to bash in windows of stores or block public roads.
Me: (In BC the Conservatives are still manifesting their power from within the Liberal party)
The BC Conservatives are a joke, a collection of right wing nuts.
So by that we gather you were part of the Nazi (fascist) resistance or other fasicst governments? I doubt that.
and you represent the entire populace, correct??
-----------------------------------------------
An interesting mix of non-fact and non-statement with just a pinch of non-understanding of what I said.
Capitalist = bad.
NDP should be opposite to capitalist. You can't even define yourself. NDP also = bad.
Understand yet?
And what in your humble opinion is a worse capitalist than Conservative?
Liberal = NDP so I guess we have a different definition of change.
Yes, the BC Conservatives are not to be taken seriously (at this time) but I was talking about the Conservatives not the BC Conservatives.
BC Conservatives = party, few people
Conservatives = many people, different party
Liberal = Conservative
Got it?
I don't know who "we" is, thought you were representing your own opinion, or where the Nazi comment came from as obviously I'm referring to our regime(s).
And as for who I represent, obviously (to most but not you apparently) I don't represent the right wing (Conservative=Liberal=NDP)
plus some lesser factions, the Greens come to mind, but I believe I represent a group larger than any of them. Possibly even the majority although I can't speak for them. Those that haven't yet must find their voice but when they do, look out.
"Capitalist = bad.
How so? From Adrian Dix's family insurance business to internet service providers to suppliers of your food and paper, it's all capitalism to one degree or another. If it involves a profit, it is capitalism.
NDP should be opposite to capitalist. You can't even define yourself. NDP also = bad.
Understand yet?
You obviously don't.
"And what in your humble opinion is a worse capitalist than Conservative?"
There isn't one.
"Liberal = NDP so I guess we have a different definition of change."
Many differences. The Liberals do not believe in state owned businesses for one, although Pierre Trudeau wanted nationalization of energy which led to the formation of PetroCanada, but he was more NDP than Liberal (compare to Louie St. Laurent).
Big difference. The BC
BC Conservatives = party, few people
Conservatives = many people, different party
Liberal = Conservative
Got it?
Do you?
"I don't know who "we" is, thought you were representing your own opinion, or where the Nazi comment came from as obviously I'm referring to our regime(s)."
Every country has a regime, even the United States.
And as for who I represent, obviously (to most but not you apparently) I don't represent the right wing (Conservative=Liberal=NDP)
plus some lesser factions, the Greens come to mind, but I believe I represent a group larger than any of them. Possibly even the majority although I can't speak for them. Those that haven't yet must find their voice but when they do, look out.
You haven't explicitly stated which bloc or group you represent. You obviously don't represent the majority of Canadians. Your group doesn't represent the majority of Canadians. Nice try though at the
assessment test. Even though you failed.
Well, we seem to be in complete disagreement and no way to rectify the situation because it appears neither of us can understand what the other is saying. For instance this exchange over four posts:
Me: In other words you are a capitalist, possibly even Conservative, the worst kind in our country.
You: Lots of people are, and no not the worst in the country.
Me: And what in your humble opinion is a worse capitalist than Conservative?
You: There isn't one.
which I believe abbreviates to the following:
The Conservatives are the worst capitalists in the country.
No, they're not.
Then what is?
The Conservatives.
It's like a bad Monty Python sketch.
I see no worthwhile arguments in the remainder of your post but your last paragraph is worthy of a response.
And as for who I represent . . .
"You haven't explicitly stated which bloc or group you represent."
Perhaps I should have said "I am representative of" instead and I am admittedly more focused on provincial rather than federal politics but there is little difference. The "group" I refer to is that which vote for none of the main parties, predominantly characterized by not voting at all.
There is a significant percentage that normally vote but forgot or were busy with something that was more important to their everyday life than a meaningless vote but most of them simply have no voting option available.
The fragmented nature of this group and the futility of our voting system deters them from wasted effort.The one thing they share is their lack of trust in politicians running for office in a capitalist environment, especially those running as Conservative, Liberal, NDP, Green or Bloc Quebecois.
It is you who fail. You fail to acknowledge the problems inherent in the system and the unjust results. You fail to accept the psychological impact of human spirit being constantly trampled and the inevitable reaction to lash out instinctively rather than with a considered plan. My "possible majority" may be inaccurate but in your last two sentences you fail to offer a sensible argument to it.
"You obviously don't represent the majority of Canadians. Your group doesn't represent the majority of Canadians."
Neither does Stephen Harper. Provincially, neither does Christy Clark. Yet they can run roughshod over democracy. I'll stick to my arguments, thank you. Change is sorely needed and I honestly no longer give a damn how it comes about.
Neither does Stephen Harper. Provincially, neither does Christy Clark. Yet they can run roughshod over democracy. I'll stick to my arguments, thank you. Change is sorely needed and I honestly no longer give a damn how it comes about.
Actually Stephen Harper and his Conservatives do, since they received the majority of votes in the last election. Your group (what ever it might be did not).
If you don;t give a damm how change comes about then don't criticise me, NDPers or others who want to see change.
BTW: In regards to capitalism, you're supporting it whether you like it or not. Your computer, your software, the carriers of your message through the internet originate from capitalism in one way or another. Get used to it.
If not, and if you want to be in a society that is totally free from government, then a nice home in Somalia would be your best option.
Lots of sunny days and many beaches.
Think about it.
Results from Elections Canada - 2011
Conservative ---- 5,832,401
NDP --------------- 4,508,474
Liberal ------------ 2,783,175
Bloc Quebecois ---- 889,788
Green ---------------- 576,221
and no other parties in Parliament so that's 39.975% of the votes for the parties in power were for Conservatives. That's the highest number I could come up with. When you add in the other votes, the Conservative vote drops to 39.62%.
And if you consider ALL the eligible voters (23,971,740) then you realize that only 24.33% of Canadians voted Conservative. Less than 1/4 not more than 1/2. Please check with a calculator because I know you don't believe me when I say it is not a majority.
But who can argue that they aren't the largest group of Canadians, right? Well I did and now you can simply by checking your calculator to determine that there were 9,381,681 Canadians or 39.14% of those eligible who did not vote for any of the parties in Parliament. And 98.61% (I think that qualifies as predominantly) see our electoral system as a waste of time.
As to the rest of your ramblings, haven't I said that the NDP doesn't represent change? Haven't I said that we are in complete disagreement. Haven't I said that I would accept a just government? Haven't I said that it's not possible under capitalism?
And I'm well aware of all that capitalism has wrought. War, disease, poverty, climate change, resource depletion etc. Should I get used to that also? At the same time that I stand aside while you change nothing?
So you see, exactly as I've said all along. Next time you wish to put forth an argument, why not get your facts straight first or better yet, don't bother. It will save us all a lot of time.
Incidentally, that Somalia idea has given me cause for thought. Thank you. I'm curious though, which part of Somalia were you recommending? The north where you see few regulations, attracting economic activity in a self-proclaimed autonomous state (not UN recognized)?
Or the south which is a war zone dominated by greed and violence, featuring (surprise) a government being propped up by the US (capitalism on steroids) and a recent deal to keep it unchanged for another year, including government security being provided by Uganda (2nd most corrupt country in the world). The deal was that the only honest member of the government was forced to resign.
So there is a government in Somalia (another Anonymous fail) but it is an ineffective central government. The people can't be controlled (as they can in Canada) because there is no wealth left over to pacify them after the elite take their excessive share. Still the northern areas, although not perfect seem better off, possibly because there is so little government interference in their affairs.
"Results from Elections Canada - 2011
Conservative ---- 5,832,401
NDP --------------- 4,508,474
Liberal ------------ 2,783,175
Bloc Quebecois ---- 889,788
Green ---------------- 576,221
and no other parties in Parliament so that's 39.975% of the votes for the parties in power were for Conservatives. That's the highest number I could come up with. When you add in the other votes, the Conservative vote drops to 39.62%."
Doesn't matter in our first past the post system. The party which wins the most ridings wins the Prime Minister's Office.
Also, the measure of percentages is weighed against the total number of ballots cast, not the addition of what party "y" or party "x" received.
"And if you consider ALL the eligible voters (23,971,740) then you realize that only 24.33% of Canadians voted Conservative. Less than 1/4 not more than 1/2. Please check with a calculator because I know you don't believe me when I say it is not a majority.
It is since the Conservatives won the majority of seats, the NDP won the second highest number of seats
so they become Opposition."
"But who can argue that they aren't the largest group of Canadians, right? Well I did and now you can simply by checking your calculator to determine that there were 9,381,681 Canadians or 39.14% of those eligible who did not vote for any of the parties in Parliament. And 98.61% (I think that qualifies as predominantly) see our electoral system as a waste of time. "
Not so. It actually says people don't care to vote. Canada has actually a higher percentage of voter turnout than the United States.
Incidentally, that Somalia idea has given me cause for thought. Thank you. I'm curious though, which part of Somalia were you recommending? The north where you see few regulations, attracting economic activity in a self-proclaimed autonomous state (not UN recognized)?
The entire country. Where you choose to live in Somalia is your choice. I'd choose near the beach.
So there is a government in Somalia (another Anonymous fail) but it is an ineffective central government. The people can't be controlled (as they can in Canada) because there is no wealth left over to pacify them after the elite take their excessive share. Still the northern areas, although not perfect seem better off, possibly because there is so little government interference in their affairs.
There is no government to protect the citizens from the groups causing havoc there. The country is not UAE or Qatar.
If you figure differently, spend a year there yourself.
"You obviously don't represent the majority of Canadians. Your group doesn't represent the majority of Canadians."
Neither does Stephen Harper.
"Actually Stephen Harper and his Conservatives do, since they received the majority of votes in the last election."
When you add in the other votes, the Conservative vote drops to 39.62%. And if you consider ALL the eligible voters (23,971,740) then you realize that only 24.33% of Canadians voted Conservative.
Remember this dialogue? If we're talking about the majority of Canadians, they are not represented by Conservative voters. Period. End of discussion.
I'm well aware of how FPTP works, and that the Conservatives have a majority of seats without a majority of votes. That's why I'm opposed to it. That and the fact that I'm not an idiot.
But who can argue that they aren't the largest group of Canadians, right? And 98.61% see our electoral system as a waste of time.
"Not so. It actually says people don't care to vote."
Look (name called to be inserted after your next pointless response), you may want to debate whether or not voting is a waste of time and as opposed your usual nonsense, I would enjoy such a discussion because I think it is sad that our political system lends itself to disinterest but the fact is, and I'll repeat that so hopefully you're paying attention, FACT is that the people who don't vote SEE it as a waste of time regardless of the actual importance of voting. Why you even said so yourself, they don't care.
And these people far outnumber the Conservative voters so they are the largest group of Canadians. Not just the voters. Maybe that's the difference between you and I. I think about all people, equally. You're only interested in what works for your group, the NDP. Sounds a bit greedy to me but that's just my opinion.
I actually have a much lower opinion of you but I'll save that for another response if necessary. You may have to use your imagination though if Bill considers it unprintable. (Sorry, Bill but I've had enough of this guy/gal).
And finally, I don't disagree with you about the deplorable situation in Somalia but I do disagree about the reasons for it, the existence of government structure(s) and their value. Very quickly, just because they don't have government as we are familiar with doesn't mean there isn't government. In fact there are several and really Somalia doesn't exist as a unified body is part of the problem.
Thanks for the invite but I'm staying here. Why? Because I already live here. Sad as it is, I will admit there aren't too many places better.
"Remember this dialogue? If we're talking about the majority of Canadians, they are not represented by Conservative voters. Period. End of discussion."
For you until you learn a few fundamentals about the dyanmics of voter outcome. For starters, be a voter and vote.
"I'm well aware of how FPTP works, and that the Conservatives have a majority of seats without a majority of votes. That's why I'm opposed to it. That and the fact that I'm not an idiot."
Not going there 8-)
"But who can argue that they aren't the largest group of Canadians, right? And 98.61% see our electoral system as a waste of time."
Wrong actually. Canada has had up to a 65% voter turnout. Compare to the United States where it rarely gets above 45%.
"Not so. It actually says people don't care to vote."
"I actually have a much lower opinion of you but I'll save that for another response if necessary."
Actually don't care about your opinon of me, your political opinions are bad enough.
Thanks for the invite but I'm staying here. Why? Because I already live here. Sad as it is, I will admit there aren't too many places better.
Kind of a bit of being one sided. First you defend the alleged existence of a workable government in Somalia (which doesn't exist), but won't do anything to add to it.
If you're such an expert on no government control, then the rebels in Somalia will probably have a good place for you to work in.
Hopefully close to the beach.
Bring your board and sand buggy.
Petrol is very cheap in Somalia.
Where do I begin? First of all -
"I'm well aware of how FPTP works" but you seem to think that I need to "learn a few fundamentals about the dynamics of voter outcome."
"That's why I'm opposed to it. That and the fact that I'm not an idiot."
"Not going there 8-)"
Too late, you're already there.
Here, try this exercise. Go to Elections Canada yourself and find out how people voted last month. Break down the 23,971,740 eligible voters into the following groups of Canadians.
Conservative voters
Liberal voters
NDP voters
Bloc Quebecois voters
Green voters
Other voters
Non voters
If you're smart enough to figure that out (Hint: I already told you) then you shouldn't be so retarded that you constantly take statements of fact such as
"And these people (who don't vote) far outnumber the Conservative voters so they are the largest group of Canadians."
and then without any counter-argument at all simply reply "Not so", "Wrong actually".
Unless you count - "Canada has had up to a 65% voter turnout. Compare to the United States where it rarely gets above 45%."
Uh-huh. So tell me Einstein, what the hell has voter turnout in the United States got to do with the FACT that IN THE LAST ELECTION there were MORE non-voters than Conservative voters?
Okay, so you think I should vote. And I contend that under our current voting system that it's a waste of time. Well dumbass, here's your chance to start some intelligent discussion. Get out of copy and paste mode and lecture me on the value of participation in our so called democratic process.
Think you can convince me to vote before the next election rolls around? I guarantee I can poke a hole in any argument you can make about the validity of our political system. Tell me how it works, pretend I just landed on this planet and have never heard of the concept of democracy or voting.
And be prepared to answer questions thrown at you. Not up to the task? What's wrong? You want to see an increase in voter participation "but won't do anything to add to it"?
Which brings us to the pinnacle of your moronic attempts to discern fact from fiction. I did not say there was a "workable" government in Somalia so I could hardly be defending such a statement. The "government" of Somalia controls 2 square miles. That is the government that is officially recognized by the outside world.
So who controls the rest of Somalia? Other governments, clans and Al Qaeda. You can check this out on the internet same as I did, although you may not want to with your disinterest in facts and truth. "Somalia doesn't exist" was taken out of context, it "doesn't exist as a unified body".
It's called a civil war and will not have one or more recognized governments for some time but each clan or terrorist group involved in the fight still has a leader and that's their own government. Turning your head away from the truth doesn't make it go away.
And if you're so high and mighty, what are you doing to add to the governance of Somalia? Planning to move there yourself and run for office as the leading expert on the democratic process and the bliss that follows when a gun outvotes you?
Hopefully you've had enough of a beating and will stop spouting trash that I feel compelled to discount because I abhor ignorance but something tells me no, you're just not that smart. Plenty of evidence in the last couple of weeks to make that case. Happy trails, butthead.
"Where do I begin? First of all"
The simple answer is, don't. 8-)
"I'm well aware of how FPTP works" but you seem to think that I need to "learn a few fundamentals about the dynamics of voter outcome."
Too late, you're already there.
You were there before I even thought about going there!
Here, try this exercise. Go to Elections Canada yourself and find out how people voted last month. Break down the 23,971,740 eligible voters into the following groups of Canadians.
Conservative voters
Liberal voters
NDP voters
Bloc Quebecois voters
Green voters
Other voters
Non voters
No need. Alreday done. Non Voters are not counted in electoral results.
Uh-huh. So tell me Einstein, what the hell has voter turnout in the United States got to do with the FACT that IN THE LAST ELECTION there were MORE non-voters than Conservative voters?
Well genius it is called a comparative using countries.
Okay, so you think I should vote. And I contend that under our current voting system that it's a waste of time. Well dumbass, here's your chance to start some intelligent discussion. Get out of copy and paste mode and lecture me on the value of participation in our so called democratic process.
No need, you can research that yourself.
Think you can convince me to vote before the next election rolls around? I guarantee I can poke a hole in any argument you can make about the validity of our political system. Tell me how it works, pretend I just landed on this planet and have never heard of the concept of democracy or voting.
Which brings us to the pinnacle of your moronic attempts to discern fact from fiction. I did not say there was a "workable" government in Somalia so I could hardly be defending such a statement. The "government" of Somalia controls 2 square miles. That is the government that is officially recognized by the outside world.
2 square miles is not entire country.
Have a nice life, if you've managed to fine one, and find another hobby. Politics isn't makin' it for you.
Try paper folding.
Thanks for the laughs at the beginning. Too bad it degenerated into your attempts at reasoned thought. Don't want to waste much time on you so just some quick points tonight.
. . . following groups of Canadians.
Non Voters are not counted in electoral results.
Whoops! Look who can't tell the difference yet again. This would be funny too if I didn't realize you actually thought this was an intelligent response.
Or this bit of fecal matter:
Well genius it is called a comparative using countries.
Congratulations! You managed to show off your best talent, mixing questions and answers that bear no connection. We were talking about . . . oh, never mind, you'll just dream up another response without any thought to what we were discussing. No wonder you think you're so good at politics.
And I'm going to follow your advice? Give up politics? For paper folding (in Somalia I presume)? Yeah, that'll be the day I lend credence to anything you spew.
I guess that's why you weren't interested in "educating" me about our democracy, because there's no interest in listening to you. I mean, it couldn't be because you can't find a satisfactory way to explain your blind allegiance to an insane voting system, could it?
I take it you've conceded the Somalia matter. So all that's left is this riddle. What do you call someone who has lived their entire life, at least 20 years and counting, in Canada but has never voted? Too tough? Okay, I'll make it multiple choice. Is it:
A) a Canadian (person)
B) a Canadian (bottle)
C) a Canadian (can)
Alright over to you now, I'm sure you have some turds of . . . I mean words of wisdom for me.
"Thanks for the laughs at the beginning. Too bad it degenerated into your attempts at reasoned thought. Don't want to waste much time on you so just some quick points tonight."
Well "reasoned" according to you obviously.
. . . following groups of Canadians.
Non Voters are not counted in electoral results.
"Whoops! Look who can't tell the difference yet again. This would be funny too if I didn't realize you actually thought this was an intelligent response."
Quite simple, too bad you can't figure it out. If you don't vote, your "non-vote" isn't counted. But no sense in spinning that wheel again.
Or this bit of fecal matter:
Well genius it is called a comparative using countries.
"Congratulations! You managed to show off your best talent, mixing questions and answers that bear no connection. We were talking about . . . oh, never mind, you'll just dream up another response without any thought to what we were discussing. No wonder you think you're so good at politics."
You're obviously horrible at it, not even getting the basic fundamentals. The Anarchists would love your company.
"And I'm going to follow your advice? Give up politics? For paper folding (in Somalia I presume)? Yeah, that'll be the day I lend credence to anything you spew."
Sure, and would anyone follow your political expertise? There would be a better chance of you folding paper lying in the beach in Somalia before that happens.
"I guess that's why you weren't interested in "educating" me about our democracy, because there's no interest in listening to you. I mean, it couldn't be because you can't find a satisfactory way to explain your blind allegiance to an insane voting system, could it?"
No sense in educating you. There isn't anything tangible in that empty mind of yours.
"I take it you've conceded the Somalia matter. So all that's left is this riddle. What do you call someone who has lived their entire life, at least 20 years and counting, in Canada but has never voted?"
Stupid would be the correct answer.
Doesn't believe in democracy would be an extended answer. One who never votes but always complains is another answer.
Do yourrself a favour, and to those who value democracy.
Register to vote.
www.elections.ca or
If you can handle registering to vote provincially:
www.elections.bc.ca
If you don't vote, don't complain about the outcome. Yes "it is my right not vote", but the value of your opinions will matter alot more if you get off your fat ass and vote. Better yet get involved with the federal party or provincial party of choice.
For starters, threte's a membership slip waiting for you in our NDP party.
Or you can remain a closed minded whiny person.
Your choice.
Have a nice day.
The NDP is a perfect fit for you, I don't take either seriously. On the other hand the Liberals are a perfect fit for you too, they have a penchant for distorting the truth also.
Can't understand why you argue points with no chance of winning instead of agreeing to disagree. You want to continue to profess your ignorance? Fine, the NDP is welcome to you.
"If you don't vote, don't complain about the outcome."
I'm sure you would prefer people don't complain, old fascist trick, but my concern is with the electoral process, not the outcome. Funny, I believe "if you DO vote, don't complain about the outcome", like anti-HST pro-NDP people.
Is the NDP showing any signs of interest in a pro-rep system yet? Let me know, I might be interested in supporting them.
"Register to vote."
Got your foot far enough inside your mouth yet? Consider this, I voted in the last provincial election. Even went to the ballot box on May 2 so I could spoil my ballot, don't know how that affects your view of vote counting.
"Yes "it is my right not vote", but the value of your opinions will matter alot more if you get off your fat ass and vote."
So does my opinion matter to you now? What an idiotic comment. Everybody has an opinion, even morons like you. But there's no value unless someone truly listens.
And in my opinion, no party leader or candidate whose voice they stifle is worthy of my vote.
"The Anarchists would love your company." Maybe, someday we might have responsible people in government but until then I would agree that "nothing" would be better than what we have now.
Are you listening yet? Look at the length I'm going to, trying to get through that thick skull of yours. Obviously I'm not lazy, rather I genuinely oppose every major party and every single candidate they nominate. Liberal, NDP, Conservative, I find their attitude towards the electorate offensive.
You need more? I am always happy to vote in a referendum, and in 2009 I got involved with my political faction of choice, the YES side of the BC-STV referendum.
How's that foot, tasty? Let's put a little sauce on it for you. Last provincial election, I not only voted in both the election and the referendum that I was extremely active in campaigning for but I also ran as a candidate! Is that enough for you?
"Doesn't believe in democracy would be an extended answer."
If by that you mean doesn't believe in an elected dictatorship such as in BC or Canada, then I think you understand.
"One who never votes but always complains is another answer."
But to a different question naturally. What else is new?
And if you think I'm close-minded, then what does that make you? Do you even listen to what candidates say at election time? For you there is no valid opinion except from NDP.
I am not, as you attempted to portray me, whiny. I'm a political activist and I demand change but not via your pathetic methods of touting the NDP as change within a stagnant electoral system.
And your persistent "Join the NDP! Join the NDP!" isn't convincing me otherwise. Screw the NDP.
I don't have a problem with your support for the NDP but it is not my choice so wise up and stop trying to sell it to me, I'm not buying. I'll be sure to let you know if you ever say anything that even remotely sounds like the NDP is worthy of my vote. Until then get over yourself and your precious party.
And it wouldn't hurt you to concede that all Canadians are Canadians, even those who don't vote. I'll concede non-votes aren't used to determine an election winner - oh, wait I never argued they do. There, you never have to spin that wheel again. But what's left for you to talk about? I'm sure you'll find something from your fantasy world to amaze me.
T"he NDP is a perfect fit for you, I don't take either seriously. On the other hand the Liberals are a perfect fit for you too, they have a penchant for distorting the truth also."
...
"..n that wheel again. But what's left for you to talk about? I'm sure you'll find something from your fantasy world to amaze me."
Not really. face reality, dude.
You're long winded and boring.
Keep your mouth open like that on the sidewalk on a street downtown and someone will come along see your open mouth lean a bit towards it and say
"Hello.. I'd like a Double Cheese with Coke, and can I get a Frosty too?
"But if you show up wearing your tin foil hat, I'll buy you that double cheese and frosty."
Since you already got yours, where did you buy it?
"Keep your mouth open like that on the sidewalk on a street downtown and someone will come along see your open mouth lean a bit towards it and say
"Hello.. I'd like a Double Cheese with Coke, and can I get a Frosty too?"
"Since you already got yours, where did you buy it?"
---------------------------------------------------------
But what's left for you to talk about? I'm sure you'll find something from your fantasy world to amaze me.
Looks like I nailed that one, except for the amazing part. Take your time separating fact, fiction and opinion. I know it's a struggle for you but it's worth it. The sooner you own up to your ignorance and incomprehensible but creative logic, the sooner we can both get on with our lives.
Send me your corrections in a Christmas card. I'm sensitive to your learning challenges and cognitive misfortune so I'll be patient and wait for you to catch up to the human race. Once you stop being an asshole, I think you'll realize pretending to be perfect was really quite funny. Learn to laugh at yourself, everyone else does.
"I'm sure you'll find something from your fantasy world to amaze me."
Your fantasy world is amazing. Ever thought about being a test patient at UBC's pyschiatry department?
"The sooner you own up to your ignorance and incomprehensible but creative logic, the sooner we can both get on with our lives."
I've gotten on with my life a long time ago.
Why haven't you and why won't you?
"I've gotten on with my life a long time ago."
Right, that's why you're still here refusing to defend your arguments and ignoring any thought that you disagree with. I hear it's not working so well for Gadhafi, you might want to reconsider your approach.
What am I saying? You wouldn't be you if you became an intelligent listener.
"Right, that's why you're still here refusing to defend your arguments and ignoring any thought that you disagree with. I hear it's not working so well for Gadhafi, you might want to reconsider your approach."
Might want to reconsider another look in the miror yourself.
What am I saying? You wouldn't be you if you became an intelligent listener.
Depends on who the speaker is, and if that speaker is actually inteligent.
Not seeing that in you.
Enjoy the summer, and don't forget to earn extra money in the fall by being a test subject at the UBC Pyschiarty Department.
The students there could use a test patient, and you'd be a good choice for being one.
My apologies for not responding to your first dig in reference to being a psychiatry test subject. It simply wasn't interesting enough to warrant a response. But since you are being insistent and wish carry on this nonsense, the "I know you are but what am I" approach is typically infantile of you.
You're a whiny baby getting all wound up when some calls you on your horse-shit and you can't figure out how to defend yourself against accusations of blatant ignorance.
Ever considered backing up your statements with factual content? Your opinions about whose voice should be heard and whose should be ignored might have more effect if you did.
Sadly, my life now partly consists of responding to idiots like yourself. Like it or not, and obviously you don't, I will continue to give you every opportunity to mend your retarded political viewpoint.
And just to be clear, I'm don't mean your overrated support for the NDP. I wouldn't vote for them at this time but I respect that they are your choice. I hope it works out for you and them but I wouldn't bet on it and I'll continue arguing against them as a responsible choice for government until they change their ethics.
If you're looking for a summer project, why not put together a compilation of my remarks that you consider demonstrate my lack of intelligence. About 30 seconds later you can enjoy the summer also.
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